Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[attaboy]

Yup

Nope

Considering the totally ineffective electrical measurements, we really don't know what energy went in.
Considering the non standard and foolish heat out put measurements, we have no idea what so ever.

Except we really don't know that much about the electrical energy in or the heat out put.

they did not follow any standard protocols.


If he allowed people to put real electrical engineering equipment up to it and real calorimetery, then we would not be having this discussion.

There would be a legitimate effect or there would not.

I'm sure that, especially given all the eminent scientists and wealthy investment interests involved, these concerns have been addressed.
Rossi would be an out and out fool to reveal more than he has at this point.

 

[Emet]

I'm sure that, especially given all the eminent scientists and wealthy investment interests involved, these concerns have been addressed.

Have I missed something? Who are the eminent scientists?

As to wealthy investors, well, they fall for scams all the time. Like this gentleman, as well as many others.

 

[temporalillusion]

I don't know why you can say "They're rejecting it because it hasn't been satisfactorily demonstrated to work."

I can say that because I've been reading the thread. I don't see any indication of rejecting it out of hand "because it can't be explained by the theories of modern physics" as you say.

All I've read is people rejecting it because it hasn't been demonstrated to their satisfaction (and I would agree with then that a very basic level of demonstration that would put it beyond any question).

The rest of your post is a deflection from my point (and already answered by Dancing David), my point wasn't to argue the device, my point was that you were misrepresenting the position of people in the thread.

Reality trumps theory every time.

I'm sure that, especially given all the eminent scientists and wealthy investment interests involved, these concerns have been addressed.
Rossi would be an out and out fool to reveal more than he has at this point.

He doesn't have to reveal anything more. He just has to do a good test.

 

[CaveDave]

Equally, if the Ecat is kosher, Stremmenos is the fixer. The owner of a technology potentially as big as this is in real danger of having it ripped off him by a rapacious government in the name of "state security" or "the people's property"; the US military, among others, has pulled that stunt on patent-holders before now; and in particular the huge taxation implications make it a real hot property. This may be a big, dangerous deal, commercially and politically. So Rossi (who has crossed swords with the Italian government in the past, and knows the score) needs to guard his position by getting arrangements set up to prevent that happening. Stremmenos is well into the Greek establishment; he has the contacts and the wheelings and the dealings to act as Rossi's "ambassador". That, perhaps, is why the factory is being built in Greece - Stremmenos has been doing the crony work to ensure that Rossi doesn't wind up getting robbed, knifed and tossed over the levee, metaphorically, and perhaps literally. This is the land of the Mafia we're discussing.

Be very careful, there. You may be venturing into anti-Italian hate sprrch there![/ACLU lawyer]

Seriously, I understand your point, but this world is full of Liberal/Socialists who would leap at the chance to attack you over some made-up charge painting you as some "-ist" to make themselves feel heroic "helping the defensless". Sheesh!

Dave

 

[ben m]

I'm sure that, especially given all the eminent scientists and wealthy investment interests involved, these concerns have been addressed.
Rossi would be an out and out fool to reveal more than he has at this point.

Missing the point again. "Rossi would be an out an out fool to reveal"... yet "reveal" is quite a lot of what he's been up to recently. "Rossi would be a fool to reveal" is something you'd say about someone who doesn't attempt to demonstrate his device in front of reporters. He apparently wanted to reveal something.

What advantage did Rossi gain by holding, specifically, an incompetent public demonstration with meaningless lead shielding, unmetered cooling water, and a mislabeled/useless "steam dryness probe"?

If Rossi's device were real, he had the choice between (a) keeping quiet, (b) running a demo with a correct heat measurement, and (c) running a crappy demo that he claims is a heat measurement but all of whose details look like a scam.

Please explain under what circumstances it made sense for Rossi to choose (c) rather than (a) or (b). Because that's what he did. Crawdaddy has put in a vote for "building marketing buzz". What's your opinion?

Please note, for the record, that a scammer always chooses (c) because (b) would prove him wrong.

 

[Aepervius]

Equally, if the Ecat is kosher, Stremmenos is the fixer. The owner of a technology potentially as big as this is in real danger of having it ripped off him by a rapacious government in the name of "state security" or "the people's property"; the US military, among others, has pulled that stunt on patent-holders before now; and in particular the huge taxation implications make it a real hot property. This may be a big, dangerous deal, commercially and politically. So Rossi (who has crossed swords with the Italian government in the past, and knows the score) needs to guard his position by getting arrangements set up to prevent that happening. Stremmenos is well into the Greek establishment; he has the contacts and the wheelings and the dealings to act as Rossi's "ambassador". That, perhaps, is why the factory is being built in Greece - Stremmenos has been doing the crony work to ensure that Rossi doesn't wind up getting robbed, knifed and tossed over the levee, metaphorically, and perhaps literally. This is the land of the Mafia we're discussing.

Governement ripping off rossi is *INVALID* as all governement can eminent domain *ANY* discovery all the way to zero compensation , and tehre is NOTHING that an inventor can do agaisnt that. Nothing.

So saying those are safe guard agaisnt that is fooling themselves.

All one can do is safeguard against private party (firm spionage), either by keeping it a whole secret (think coca cola) or by patenting. You cannot go half half. And if one want to keep it secret until all kink are worked , you don't go public and publish your stuff on the www. If you want to patent it , you don't pretend you have sooper-seeekret ingredient. And more particularly , you don't do half assed demonstration if you want to attract real Buzz.

I am sorry, but Rossi looks like the new BLP or the new Steorn.

 

[unclep2k]

The lead shielding is only meaningless if you assume strong radiation, the unmetered cooling water was just in a paticular demonstration to mute the steam dryness issue (in other demonstrations flow was measured and water was weighed), and the steam dryness probe was supplied by others not Rossi.

 

[unclep2k]

But none of this matters. We've said this stuff a hundred times. We just have to be patient and wait until he either comes through with a power plant or stumbles. I would do anything I could to help the guy just in case it's true. If he turns out to be a crook, I'll be here for the whipping.

 

[attaboy]

Have I missed something? Who are the eminent scientists?

As to wealthy investors, well, they fall for scams all the time. Like this gentleman, as well as many others.

Maybe eminent is a little strong but one of his partners, Focardi and the Swedish scientists are certainly quite reputable. And the latter are widely known to be skeptics.
Wealthy investors don't get wealthy by falling for scams on a regular basis. More often they've assessed the prospect as being valid which is part of the reason they get wealthy.

 

[attaboy]

I can say that because I've been reading the thread. I don't see any indication of rejecting it out of hand "because it can't be explained by the theories of modern physics" as you say.

All I've read is people rejecting it because it hasn't been demonstrated to their satisfaction (and I would agree with then that a very basic level of demonstration that would put it beyond any question).

OK, I've read just bits and pieces of this thread for a number of reasons. Mainly, I feel a lot more comfortable with what I've read of the positive assessments by prominent scientists who have seen demos of the E-cat rather than go by the say so of posters on a forum. "Their satisfaction" means little to me.
Here's a simple piece of apparatus (the E-cat) that can be quickly evaluated for gimmicks. Its turned on and puts out many times more energy than what's put in. The measurements would have to be stone age crude, to refute the very large output/input energy ratio.

 

[Teemu]

OK, I've read just bits and pieces of this thread for a number of reasons. Mainly, I feel a lot more comfortable with what I've read of the positive assessments by prominent scientists who have seen demos of the E-cat rather than go by the say so of posters on a forum.

Where does this concept, that all scientists are the same and they can give competent opinions from all fields of science, come from? Nobody thinks that people trained in humanities can give professional opinion of everything related to liberal arts. Hanno Essén is a docent of theoretical physics, whose main research and teaching subjects seems to be classical mechanics. So his specialization is about as well suited for Rossi experiments as Steven E. Jones' expertize is suited for structural engineering. A student with one summer in laboratory doing calorimetry and instrumentation would be more competent to supervise Rossi experiments. Sven Kullander is nuclear physicist, but they are usually not that specialized in measuring the inputs and outputs of miniature energy devices either. If Rossi wanted to end the debate, he could send the device to professional laboratory, and they could tell within 24 hours if it is real or not, without opening it, so Rossi could write a contract to protect his secrets. But for some reason he prefers to do the tests with people who don't really have proper specialization and are already so old that they are unlikely to learn quickly so that they won't become too competent...

Here's a simple piece of apparatus (the E-cat) that can be quickly evaluated for gimmicks. Its turned on and puts out many times more energy than what's put in. The measurements would have to be stone age crude, to refute the very large output/input energy ratio.

Well, for their public test, the they measured the air humidity instead of steam dryness, so...

 

[Thon Brocket]

Governement ripping off rossi is *INVALID* as all governement can eminent domain *ANY* discovery all the way to zero compensation , and tehre is NOTHING that an inventor can do agaisnt that. Nothing.

Not quite sure what you're driving at here, Aep, but I reckon we're in agreement on the real danger of a government ripping Rossi off. This isn't the right forum for arguing about the ethics of it.

So saying those are safe guard agaisnt that is fooling themselves.

You can't outgun government - Hell, that's the definition of government - so you have to outthink them. There are strategies available (none guaranteed to work, of course) to protect yourself. Use multiple jurisdictions. Make your contacts work for you. Wheel. Deal. Be nimble. And so forth. If this thing is real, that seems to me to be where Stremmenos will be earning his money.

I am sorry, but Rossi looks like the new BLP or the new Steorn.

I'm not taking a position on any of that. Like a lot of people have already said, I'll keep my powder dry until October.

 

[Craig B]

attaboy

Wealthy investors don't get wealthy by falling for scams on a regular basis: true enough.

However, an exceedingly effective way of getting wealthy is by investing in a scam, knowing it to be a scam, and then selling out before the scam blows up. This is known as the "Greater Fool" principle.

 

[unclep2k]

Ben M I have no doubt if you were allowed to test Rossi's device, and to your amazement you found it valid, within moments of your published data, cynics in many forums and blogs would be posting that you are a bone head, your testing methods are flawed, and you proved nothing.

 

[Thon Brocket]

Be very careful, there. You may be venturing into anti-Italian hate sprrch there![/ACLU lawyer]

Seriously, I understand your point, but this world is full of Liberal/Socialists who would leap at the chance to attack you over some made-up charge painting you as some "-ist" to make themselves feel heroic "helping the defensless".

Dave

And, Dave, be assured, I shall withstand, nay, vanqish, them. With my shiny, shiny Armour of Honour and my shiny, pointy Sword of Truth.

Or something like that.

 

[CaveDave]

I don't know why you can say "They're rejecting it because it hasn't been satisfactorily demonstrated to work." He's demonstrated it convincingly before top scientists, some of which are also well known to be avid skeptics.

One could assemble DOZENS of "top" scientists_{a}, "demonstrate" a new device_{b}, which is claimed to positively force acceptance of a paradigm shift in the field, and possibly write new chapters in physics_{c}, allow the eminent (wo)men to touch, test, or whatever - the apparatus - ask detailed questions of any of the experimenters_{c}, take photos standing by the machine - whatever - then go write their impressions so the presenters can publish them to achieve wide acclaim._{d}

And STILL we here at JREF would respond with HORSELAUGHS!

HOW, one might ask, could this be? Are JREFers NUTS?

Good question; thanks for asking.

So, strap on your thinking caps, here we go:

{a} The best Geologists, Biologists, Physical Chemists, and Paleontologists, worldwide, every one of them Top Achievers with highest honors and awards,
and several Nobel laureates to boot. All were flown in on private jet and allowed a 10 all expenses paid vacation during the visit.

{b} The "device" was an early, crude, ugly proto-model of a Josephson-Junction - Dewars of LN₂, LHe, wires, instruments - the very environment "Smelled" of science.

{c}AIUI (as I understand it - correct me if I am wrong!), The JJ caused a medium-large upheaval in several extremely narrow and specialized sub-fields involving Ultra-low temperatures, superconductivity, and Quantum structure and behavior, and how Electrons behave and move in a "solid state" environment.

{d}The participants handed over their Reports, and spread ... BZZZZZT --- SYSTEM FAILURE - ABORT, ABORT

I (CaveDave) ATTEMPT WHAT I BELIEVE WILL BE A CLEVER RESPONSE TO A POST BY MY OPPONENT, BUT THE HOUR IS LATE AND ETHANOL SULLIES MY MIND, I MAKE A MOCKERY OF MY OWN CLEVER CONSTRUCT, I DIE, MY ROTTING CORPSE IS CONSUMED BY BEASTS, THE BEASTS, AFTER MOVING AWAY, VOMIT UP MY PUTRID REMAINS WHICH ARE CONSUMED BY DUNG BEETLES, THE DUNG BEETLES ARE INFLICTED WITH MY SICKNESS AND CARRY IT BACK TO THEIR NEST, MY UNCLEANLINESS ENGULFS THE ENTIRE DUNG BEETLE SPECIES, ALL DUNG BEETLES DIE, THE BEASTS RANGE FAR AND WIDE ON THE GLOBE AND SPREAD MY AFFLICTION PLANET-WIDE TO ALL FLORA AND FAUNA, THEY, EVERY ONE, FALL VICTIM TO MY SIN, AND WALLOW IN THEIR OWN WASTE, SPACEFARING INTELLIGENCES ARRIVE TO FIND THE WASTELAND OF MY SHAME, UNKNOWINGLY, THEY CARRY THE FILTH TO THE FAR CORNERS OF THE UNIVERSE, ALL LIFE SUCCUMBS, ALL DIE, O THE EMBARRASSMENT!

Some one might want to look at "A !Tangled Web" by Joe Haldeman, ca 1965 Analog SF&SF, if they enjoy SF.

---------------------------------------------------

I give up:

The best-laid plans...

This one REALLY ran "awry" ...

Too long since sleep...
Too late at night...
Too many Adult Beverages...
Too much chaos IRL...

This drifted off-course before I knew it was happening, and I see no salvation.

If you can fix it, go ahead...

ETA:I hope I left enough clues for someone to work it out



I failed...


Sayonara, 'till to-mara !

Dave

 

[Dancing David]

I'm sure that, especially given all the eminent scientists and wealthy investment interests involved, these concerns have been addressed.
Rossi would be an out and out fool to reveal more than he has at this point.

No they haven't, that is why we are talking about this, are you really this opaque or do you just scan the thread.

Rossi doesn’t have to reveal a single things, really your argument is specious, all he has to do is allow an electrical engineer to use standard procedures and place the device in a still water bath. All of which could be done for likely free at a hundred different universities. Nothing in his device would be revealed, which is why your argument is specious.

The devices used for measuring the electrical energy are unspecified as to make and model number, in one test they are simply shown in a photo. This is not standard SOP for electrical engineering.

The way they pretended to measure heat was truly off the mark, there has been considerable discussion on both issues.

Neither are addressed in any of the reports.

If someone was marketing a new carbon fuel engine and claimed the same sort of result they too would be questioned on the results.

So ? What makes you think these concerns have been addressed, do you know the makes and models of the electrical measurement devices, have they used a still water bath or any other number of standard heat measures?

We have NOT seen who these alleged wealthy investors are, yet you insist that they have asked for a higher standard than Rossi has shown.

Let us start with the data we have, is that okay with you?

So where can you support either of the two claims in your statement?

1. That they used adequate measurement to show an effect?

2. That alleged wealthy investors asked for a high standard?

 

[Dancing David]

The lead shielding is only meaningless if you assume strong radiation, the unmetered cooling water was just in a paticular demonstration to mute the steam dryness issue (in other demonstrations flow was measured and water was weighed), and the steam dryness probe was supplied by others not Rossi.

I bet there are hundreds of universities that would provide a still water bath and electrical engineering for free, why hasn't Rossi done that?

 

[Dancing David]

Maybe eminent is a little strong but one of his partners, Focardi and the Swedish scientists are certainly quite reputable. And the latter are widely known to be skeptics.
Wealthy investors don't get wealthy by falling for scams on a regular basis. More often they've assessed the prospect as being valid which is part of the reason they get wealthy.

Wealthy as in who?

Hmmm?

 

[Dancing David]

OK, I've read just bits and pieces of this thread for a number of reasons. Mainly, I feel a lot more comfortable with what I've read of the positive assessments by prominent scientists who have seen demos of the E-cat rather than go by the say so of posters on a forum. "Their satisfaction" means little to me.
Here's a simple piece of apparatus (the E-cat) that can be quickly evaluated for gimmicks. Its turned on and puts out many times more energy than what's put in. The measurements would have to be stone age crude, to refute the very large output/input energy ratio.

So why aren't they using standard measures?

Hmmm, where can you shown that the procedures used are anywhere near the standard?

just a couple articles about how others used these methods in reseach?

As discussed

-we don't know the amount of electrical energy in
-we don't know the heat energy out

So why is science is based upon measurement and metrics do you think you can just hand wave the lack of adequate measurement away?

How do you know what the output/input energy ratio is?

Really?