Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[pteridine]

How long will you wait?

Until I deem it resolved.

 

[Kid Eager]

Mitsubishi: US patent application publications US20020080903 US20090290674

Naval Research Lab: US pat 7381368

NASA has filed patents on LENR and Boeing has filed a few but they are said to be applications for aircraft.

Uh, no.

The information I can find on the first quoted patent application is 10 years old and is too brief to draw any conclusions from. Looks a bit like a variation on a fuel cell, maybe.

The second (Naval Research Labs) is nothing to do with LENR - it's to do with an improved method for creation of metallic membranes for hydrogen purification.

 

[Klimax]

Could people fix the quote tags? Quoting became quite a mess...

 

[Aepervius]

I get the feeling you are the only person here who thinks Rossi actually has anything.

On this board ? probably. But back in the day rossi had a lot of "fans", Just like Steorn/Orobo had a lot of them. By now they must be really dwindling in numbers, and my guess is that only the fundemmentally idiot will by now "bite" into rossi's scam.

The willingness to believe something "too goo to be true" while at the same time being confronted by the reality that the person do not in any way shape or form allow independente investigation always astound me.

 

[Aepervius]

If you look at the companies wasting patent lawyer and patent examiner time on LENR patents, you will be pleased to see large companies among them.

I would not be surprised of that, as it cost less for a large company to patent something which MIGHT work on the off chance they can "troll" the patent later and get a part of the pie for a few measily 10K, than the cost of passing it and being forced to pay dividende. You would not wonder at the lot of crap big company patent, shotgun like.

Still I would wager that the patent are not for reactor producing energy. Care to share a few link ?

 

[Aepervius]

I'm also probably the only person left in this discussion that isn't positive he is a fraud.

That's because he is a convicted fraud. Whereas he is a fraud in cold fusion case is a matter of probability, his past conviction are a matter of facts.

 

[Aepervius]

Uh, no.

The information I can find on the first quoted patent application is 10 years old and is too brief to draw any conclusions from. Looks a bit like a variation on a fuel cell, maybe.

The second (Naval Research Labs) is nothing to do with LENR - it's to do with an improved method for creation of metallic membranes for hydrogen purification.

Well color me surprised.

 

[trebor]

Piantelli has been working on Ni-H2 systems for almost 20 years and he has only recently moved to commercialize one variation. Is he a "multi-year incompetent-delayer," too?

Interestingly, I see Piantelli's big announcement was made in May 2012 that in 'just a few months' he could produce a commercial product. And then started selling shares.

Its nearly a year later, where can these commercial products be purchased?
I could do with a new water heater.

Or is it that after 20 years he is in exactly the same position as Rossi; lots of talk, nothing he is willing to actually let people use/test?

Question for you pteridine; did you buy any of his shares?

 

[Dancing David]

I think Rossi is just what was needed as he got many people moving. His research is definitely Edisonian, although I find that many working in LENR also worked in thermoelectrics, so possibly there is a common starting point. Maybe he will hold the master patent and maybe he will not. If any entity, including any of those you invoked, can commercialize LENR, it will be a real win for everyone.

Nope he is not like Edison at all, Edison went through projects like paper plates, when it did not work he went on to the next one

Rossi acts like a charlatan.

 

[Dancing David]

I get the feeling you are the only person here who thinks Rossi actually has anything.

I'm also probably the only person left in this discussion that isn't positive he is a fraud. I do think he has something, but I will wait for him to show it before I claim his device works as he says it does.

I am not positive and your cheerleader status is showing, I have taken a long neutral stance,

However Rossi acts like it is a fraud and acts like he is a charlatan.

This 'just next month', 'just next quarter' game has been going on for how long exactly?

What I will say is that he has NEVER shown he has an effect much less a device.

 

[Dancing David]

Which companies are "wasting patent lawyer and patent examiner time on LENR patents"? Where is the evidence of this throwaway statement being true?

Mitsubishi: US patent application publications US20020080903 US20090290674

Naval Research Lab: US pat 7381368

NASA has filed patents on LENR and Boeing has filed a few but they are said to be applications for aircraft.

And they are throwing away the money how?

You are silly , you seem to defend Rossi no matter what, should I drag up the quotes about how is was just around teh corner from well over a year ago.

Rossi acts like a con man, one of my grandfathers was an 'inventor' he did not engage in teh scam behaviors, he made things, patented them and tried to sell them. But he made working models first, these were models that demonstrated the device. That he would show to any one at any time, often against their will.

Rossi acts like a charlatan.

 

[dsandber]

Rossi belief certainty?

I'm also probably the only person left in this discussion that isn't positive he is a fraud. I do think he has something, but I will wait for him to show it before I claim his device works as he says it does.

Curious -- how would you describe your certainty that he "has something" numerically? Do you think it's 20%, or 90%, or what?

 

[pteridine]

Uh, no.

The information I can find on the first quoted patent application is 10 years old and is too brief to draw any conclusions from. Looks a bit like a variation on a fuel cell, maybe.

The second (Naval Research Labs) is nothing to do with LENR - it's to do with an improved method for creation of metallic membranes for hydrogen purification.

"Uh, yes," to use the latest clever phrasing. Read the claims, carefully. It was found, after a great deal of work, that Boron impurities in the Pd were important in causing the effect, hence the addition of boron to the Pd. At the time, one had to make LENR claims secondary and so the claim of a membrane was shown first. From the USPTO database:

"Claim 14. A method of generating energy comprising the steps of: providing the electrode of claim 13, connecting the electrode to a cathode, immersing the electrode and the cathode in water containing deuterium, and applying a current to the electrode and the cathode.

"Preferably the alloy composition of the present invention can be formed into a membrane for use in the purification of hydrogen, or can be made into an electrode useful for numerous purposes, including the loading of the electrode with deuterium for the generation of heat energy, or other standard electrochemical purposes."

 

[Kid Eager]

"Uh, yes," to use the latest clever phrasing. Read the claims, carefully. It was found, after a great deal of work, that Boron impurities in the Pd were important in causing the effect, hence the addition of boron to the Pd. At the time, one had to make LENR claims secondary and so the claim of a membrane was shown first. From the USPTO database:

"Claim 14. A method of generating energy comprising the steps of: providing the electrode of claim 13, connecting the electrode to a cathode, immersing the electrode and the cathode in water containing deuterium, and applying a current to the electrode and the cathode.

"Preferably the alloy composition of the present invention can be formed into a membrane for use in the purification of hydrogen, or can be made into an electrode useful for numerous purposes, including the loading of the electrode with deuterium for the generation of heat energy, or other standard electrochemical purposes."

Even if we allow for the selective quoting, neither are patents on cold fusion.

 

[pteridine]

First, there is no neither; I am only referring to the NRL patent. If you look at the date, you may realize that the patent dates from the time when an application claiming only energy production via LENR would immediately kill a patent. Pd works well as an H2 separation membrane. Boron does nothing for the hydrogen flux but is important in LENR, as the Navy labs discovered.
Claim 14 says that the patent includes LENR.

 

[pteridine]

The abstract from the Mitsubishi patent application titled "Nuclide transmutation device and nuclide transmutation method" is as follows: "The present invention produces nuclide transmutation using a relatively small-scale device. The device 10 that produces nuclide transmutation comprises a structure body 11 that is substantially plate shaped and made of palladium (Pd) or palladium alloy, or another metal that absorbs hydrogen (for example, Ti) or an alloy thereof, and a material 14 that undergoes nuclide transmutation laminated on one surface 11A among the two surfaces of this structure body 11. The one surface 11A side of the structure body 11, for example, is made a region in which the pressure of the deuterium is high due to pressure or electrolysis and the like, and the other surface 11B side, for example, is a region in which the pressure of the deuterium is low due to vacuum exhausting and the like, and thereby, a flow of deuterium in the structure body 11 is produced, and nuclide transmutation is carried out by a reaction between the deuterium and the material 14 that undergoes nuclide transmutation."
Read the abstract and explain how transmutation using hydrogen and Pd is not a cold fusion claim.

 

[Horatius]

Most patents are on the vague side while trying to claim as much as possible. This is especially true when catalysts are being patented.

And I'm sure you can't will provide evidence for this assertion. How many patents or patent applications have you read? I'd bet good money it's a lot fewer than me.

It is also common for companies to file multiple variations on a patent, hence "Joe Blow has 42 patents" may mean that Joe had three ideas and possibly one was patented as a red herring to lead competitors astray, which is another way for the patent system to actually do the job it is supposed to do.

Next verse, same as the first.

Your claim that he is attempting to "put one over on the patent office" is mere opinion as putting one over would not serve his purpose in the long run. I believe that he will refine the application, as required, in an attempt to get his patent.

Two things: 1) It only "would not serve his purpose" if you assume his purpose is to be perfectly open and honest. We have no reason to assume that, even though you do assume that.

2) You believe he will "refine the application"; again, without any basis, because he's literally had years to respond to these criticisms, and yet, has not amended the application.

Interestingly, I note that you also allow that Rossi may actually have something and that means you think he may not be a fraud. Is this change of tone due to your acceptance of the possibility due to the many LENR related patents that have recently been filed?

No, that's just the Standard Skeptic Disclaimer, that admits I don't know absolutely everything. There's always the possibility that I'm wrong, but that's not the way I'd bet in this particular case.

Thank you, Ben, for explaining Horatius' words. I'm sure he will agree with you.
I had concluded that he was starting to weasel, just in case Rossi really had something.

Yeah, you keep thinking that if it's what you have to do to keep avoiding the evidence of Rossi being a fraud.

Correction. A true win for us would be if LENR actually existed, and if someone revealed it in any way whatsoever.

A real "win" would have been: if LENR had been real; if Pons and Fleischmann, or Hagelman, or similar academics, had discovered it and released it publicly; and the "commercialization" had been done by GE/Siemens/Hyundai competing with each other to sell more / better / cheaper units than the other.

Here's the thing about Cold Fusion:

If there does exist some mechanism by which some atoms can be made to fuse, and produce useful amounts of energy, at temperatures less than the millions of degrees needed in Hot Fusion, that mechanism almost certainly will not involve any of the mechanisms we've commonly seen, such as electrolysis with palladium electrodes, adsorption onto nickel, and all that. Why? Because if those things did work, one of these guys would have shown some useful results by now. 25 years of failure should have taught us that much, but some people are resistant to learning.

Uh, no.

The information I can find on the first quoted patent application is 10 years old and is too brief to draw any conclusions from. Looks a bit like a variation on a fuel cell, maybe.

The second (Naval Research Labs) is nothing to do with LENR - it's to do with an improved method for creation of metallic membranes for hydrogen purification.

You can see the first two applications at these links:

http://www.google.com/patents/US20090290674
http://www.google.com/patents/US20020080903

They do pretty much deal with Cold Fusion, but, if you check on them at the USPTO PAIR site, you'll see they're both abandoned, having been rejected by the examiner for a lack of utility, and insufficient description.

"Claim 14. A method of generating energy comprising the steps of: providing the electrode of claim 13, connecting the electrode to a cathode, immersing the electrode and the cathode in water containing deuterium, and applying a current to the electrode and the cathode.

"Preferably the alloy composition of the present invention can be formed into a membrane for use in the purification of hydrogen, or can be made into an electrode useful for numerous purposes, including the loading of the electrode with deuterium for the generation of heat energy, or other standard electrochemical purposes."

I've looked into the prosecution history of this patent, and it's a bit Wonky. I've sent an e-mail to a colleague to see what he can tell me about it, and will report back.

 

[Horatius]

Anyway, while we wait for a response to my e-mail, consider this question about that patent, number: 7381368. It has an issue date of June 3, 2008.

That is, Cold Fusioneers have had an issued patent, that ostensibly protects "A method of generating energy", and yet, in almost 5 years, they still haven't done anything to commercialize this "invention". Has any Cold Fusioneer applied to license this patent?

This is what they've all been claiming they've wanted, it's what they've all been claiming they've been waiting for, so why hasn't there been any action? What are they waiting for now?

 

[pteridine]

Anyway, while we wait for a response to my e-mail, consider this question about that patent, number: 7381368. It has an issue date of June 3, 2008.
This is what they've all been claiming they've wanted, it's what they've all been claiming they've been waiting for, so why hasn't there been any action? What are they waiting for now?

You are asking me to speculate why no one has yet licensed this patent and developed the technology, assuming that it has not been licensed. A likely reason may be that it is a patent that would apply to an electrolysis device using Pd and D2O. It is likely that a commercial device using Ni and H2 would be more practical and economical.

 

[bruto]

You are asking me to speculate why no one has yet licensed this patent and developed the technology, assuming that it has not been licensed. A likely reason may be that it is a patent that would apply to an electrolysis device using Pd and D2O. It is likely that a commercial device using Ni and H2 would be more practical and economical.

So you're using speculation about a patent that probably doesn't work as evidence that an unknown and unpatented process will work?