Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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pteridine said:
You never did address my questions on your 'win for us' statement.
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That is because Horatius never made that statement.
Horatius made a joke:
Horatius said:
They noted Rossi's statements about the necessity of the catalyst, and the fact that this catalyst is not identified in the patent application, so that's a win for us :D.
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If you take it seriously then it is a win for us rational thinking people when a crank makes such an obvious error as not to mention a necessary part of the apparatus in his patent application.
 
pteridine said:
You never did address my questions on your 'win for us' statement.
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trebor said:
I do not know the context of his statement, but I would see it as a small win for anyone interested in an end to this scam.
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Reality Check said:
That is because Horatius never made that statement.
Horatius made a joke:


If you take it seriously then it is a win for us rational thinking people when a crank makes such an obvious error as not to mention a necessary part of the apparatus in his patent application.
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Yeah, I've used this phrase in other patent-related contexts. The "win for us" is a win for anyone who wants reality to triumph over fraud, for truth to win over lies, and for the patent system to actually do the job it's supposed to do, rather than just accepting crap applications without question, because it's easier than doing a proper job.

And as I've said before, this is a crap application, even if Rossi isn't full of ****, because his pathetic attempt to put one over on the patent office has introduced a fatal flaw in his application. And that's entirely his own fault.
 
And anyway, why would any sane person put their faith in a guy whose patent application makes a massive arithmetic error? I mean, are we really expected to embrace an innumerate messiah?
 
Horatius said:
Yeah, I've used this phrase in other patent-related contexts. The "win for us" is a win for anyone who wants reality to triumph over fraud, for truth to win over lies, and for the patent system to actually do the job it's supposed to do, rather than just accepting crap applications without question, because it's easier than doing a proper job.

And as I've said before, this is a crap application, even if Rossi isn't full of ****, because his pathetic attempt to put one over on the patent office has introduced a fatal flaw in his application. And that's entirely his own fault.
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Most patents are on the vague side while trying to claim as much as possible. This is especially true when catalysts are being patented. It is also common for companies to file multiple variations on a patent, hence "Joe Blow has 42 patents" may mean that Joe had three ideas and possibly one was patented as a red herring to lead competitors astray, which is another way for the patent system to actually do the job it is supposed to do.
Consider that Rossi doesn't have the patent machinery of a large oil company and that he is a small fish in the ocean of energy-related patents. He doesn't have law firms specializing in IP on retainer and not all patent lawyers have equivalent skills. Your claim that he is attempting to "put one over on the patent office" is mere opinion as putting one over would not serve his purpose in the long run. I believe that he will refine the application, as required, in an attempt to get his patent.
Interestingly, I note that you also allow that Rossi may actually have something and that means you think he may not be a fraud. Is this change of tone due to your acceptance of the possibility due to the many LENR related patents that have recently been filed?
 
pteridine said:
Interestingly, I note that you also allow that Rossi may actually have something and that means you think he may not be a fraud. Is this change of tone due to your acceptance of the possibility due to the many LENR related patents that have recently been filed?
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You are misreading a standard form of argument.

"My client is innocent. The murder occurred in New York, but my client was in McMurdo Station, Antarctica, at the time. Even if he had been in New York, the murderer was described as tall and thin, but my client is short and fat. Even if the descriptions had matched, the murder weapon fingerprints don't match."

"Aha! By agreeing to discuss fingerprints, do you admit the POSSIBILITY that your client was in New York?"

"No, um, we're just pointing out many different aspects of my client's innocence."
 
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ben m said:
You are misreading a standard form of argument.

"My client is innocent. The murder occurred in New York, but my client was in McMurdo Station, Antarctica, at the time. Even if he had been in New York, the murderer was described as tall and thin, but my client is short and fat. Even if the descriptions had matched, the murder weapon fingerprints don't match."

"Aha! By agreeing to discuss fingerprints, do you admit the POSSIBILITY that your client was in New York?"

"No, um, we're just pointing out many different aspects of my client's innocence."
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Thank you, Ben, for explaining Horatius' words. I'm sure he will agree with you.
I had concluded that he was starting to weasel, just in case Rossi really had something. It seems that Rossi brings out strong emotion in many on this thread and some take great pleasure in deriding him.
In a less petty sense, a true "win for us" and the rest of the world would be if Rossi got his patent and commercialized LENR.
 
pteridine said:
Most patents are on the vague side while trying to claim as much as possible. This is especially true when catalysts are being patented. It is also common for companies to file multiple variations on a patent, hence "Joe Blow has 42 patents" may mean that Joe had three ideas and possibly one was patented as a red herring to lead competitors astray, which is another way for the patent system to actually do the job it is supposed to do.
Consider that Rossi doesn't have the patent machinery of a large oil company and that he is a small fish in the ocean of energy-related patents. He doesn't have law firms specializing in IP on retainer and not all patent lawyers have equivalent skills. Your claim that he is attempting to "put one over on the patent office" is mere opinion as putting one over would not serve his purpose in the long run. I believe that he will refine the application, as required, in an attempt to get his patent.
Interestingly, I note that you also allow that Rossi may actually have something and that means you think he may not be a fraud. Is this change of tone due to your acceptance of the possibility due to the many LENR related patents that have recently been filed?
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Considering Rossi has shown zero evidence of a patent-able device that actually does anything maybe you should question your support of him. He could get millions of dollars by just a simple still water demonstration, people would line up around the block if he did that. Shares at his IPO would be higher than Facebook's, the problem is simple.

he hasn't got a device that produces surplus heat.
 
pteridine said:
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I had concluded that he was starting to weasel, just in case Rossi really had something.
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I get the feeling you are the only person here who thinks Rossi actually has anything.

pteridine said:
In a less petty sense, a true "win for us" and the rest of the world would be if Rossi got his patent and commercialized LENR.
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You seem to be skipping the problem that there has been no evidence that he has anything patentable* or of any commercial value beyond extracting money from desperate investors.

*and that is remarkable considering how easy it is to get patents on junk.
 
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pteridine said:
some take great pleasure in deriding him.
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"take great pleasure in deriding charlatans" is practically JREF's motto.

In a less petty sense, a true "win for us" and the rest of the world would be if Rossi got his patent and commercialized LENR.
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Correction. A true win for us would be if LENR actually existed, and if someone revealed it in any way whatsoever.

A real "win" would have been: if LENR had been real; if Pons and Fleischmann, or Hagelman, or similar academics, had discovered it and released it publicly; and the "commercialization" had been done by GE/Siemens/Hyundai competing with each other to sell more / better / cheaper units than the other.

The idea that it be multi-year incompetent-delayer Andrea Rossi; the idea that he should patent it and slowly and incompetently "commercialize" it, subtracts from, rather than adds to, the win.
 
ben m said:
"take great pleasure in deriding charlatans" is practically JREF's motto.



Correction. A true win for us would be if LENR actually existed, and if someone revealed it in any way whatsoever.

A real "win" would have been: if LENR had been real; if Pons and Fleischmann, or Hagelman, or similar academics, had discovered it and released it publicly; and the "commercialization" had been done by GE/Siemens/Hyundai competing with each other to sell more / better / cheaper units than the other.

The idea that it be multi-year incompetent-delayer Andrea Rossi; the idea that he should patent it and slowly and incompetently "commercialize" it, subtracts from, rather than adds to, the win.
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If you look at the companies wasting patent lawyer and patent examiner time on LENR patents, you will be pleased to see large companies among them. Maybe Rossi forced these companies to build portfolios "just in case" or maybe they have a version of LENR, also.
Why would you suggest an academic? Academics live to publish papers and give each other awards, sometimes grudgingly, in the fashion of Hollywood. They also tend to study something, carefully and slowly. Piantelli has been working on Ni-H2 systems for almost 20 years and he has only recently moved to commercialize one variation. Is he a "multi-year incompetent-delayer," too? [The "multi-year incompetent-delayer" concept is something that you should certainly take credit for. In an earlier age, duels would have been fought over this deadly insult.]

I think Rossi is just what was needed as he got many people moving. His research is definitely Edisonian, although I find that many working in LENR also worked in thermoelectrics, so possibly there is a common starting point. Maybe he will hold the master patent and maybe he will not. If any entity, including any of those you invoked, can commercialize LENR, it will be a real win for everyone.
 
Which companies are "wasting patent lawyer and patent examiner time on LENR patents"? Where is the evidence of this throwaway statement being true?

ETA - I would love LENR to be true, but so far smoke and mirrors are as far as it goes. There are far too many "ifs", "maybes" and "I thinks" for any claims of LENR existence or viability to be credible. Evidence, please. Until then, it's all puffery and handwaving.
 
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trebor said:
I get the feeling you are the only person here who thinks Rossi actually has anything.
QUOTE]

I'm also probably the only person left in this discussion that isn't positive he is a fraud. I do think he has something, but I will wait for him to show it before I claim his device works as he says it does.
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pteridine said:
trebor said:
I get the feeling you are the only person here who thinks Rossi actually has anything.
QUOTE]

I'm also probably the only person left in this discussion that isn't positive he is a fraud. I do think he has something, but I will wait for him to show it before I claim his device works as he says it does.
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How long will you wait?
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Kid Eager said:
Which companies are "wasting patent lawyer and patent examiner time on LENR patents"? Where is the evidence of this throwaway statement being true?
QUOTE]


Mitsubishi: US patent application publications US20020080903 US20090290674

Naval Research Lab: US pat 7381368

NASA has filed patents on LENR and Boeing has filed a few but they are said to be applications for aircraft.
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