Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[Reality Check]

Your recommendation is very bad because looking at Rossi's demonstrations shows that his power plant does not work and suggests that he is even faking his results.

The conclusion that Rossi is a fraud (or at least just another deluded crank) comes from his continued inability to actually produce a working power plant despite announcing that they exist or will exist several times.

There is no credible evidence that LENR exists and LENR violates what we know about physics. It is not worthy of further study, just like perpetual motion machines are not worthy of further study.

 

[Kid Eager]

I have stated all along that the ECat may not work as claimed. Many on here petulantly demand proof that satisfies their own personal criteria and, if not instantly gratified, immedately conclude that Rossi is a fraud.
I have recommended that you wait for a public demonstration by a disinterested third party and examine the evidence before concluding that there is nothing here. Many delight in making snide comments or attempt humor [e.g., the electric tea kettle 'joke'] rather than to patiently await results. There need be no rush to conclude anything.
I am convinced that the phenomenon, now referred to as LENR, is worthy of further study.

Your lack of skepticism is disturbing.

 

[Craig B]

I have stated all along that the ECat may not work as claimed. Many on here petulantly demand proof that satisfies their own personal criteria and, if not instantly gratified, immedately conclude that Rossi is a fraud.
I have recommended that you wait for a public demonstration by a disinterested third party and examine the evidence before concluding that there is nothing here. Many delight in making snide comments or attempt humor [e.g., the electric tea kettle 'joke'] rather than to patiently await results. There need be no rush to conclude anything.
I am convinced that the phenomenon, now referred to as LENR, is worthy of further study.

I have patiently awaited results. Rossi says he has sold MW range e-cats, and they are in use. He claimed last year to have used one to heat a factory in Italy. He has claimed to have hundreds of working examples of these things. So he has been able to produce evidence, but he has not. Will you wait for ever? If a person claims he can do something but refuses to let people see it being done in a reasonable time, then it is overwhelmingly probable that it is a fraud or a delusion. I reached that stage very long ago. How long will you give him? He has promised some kind of announcement or revelation in September. I think you should make that your final deadline, and if he them merely churns out more excuses and evasions, you must dismiss him as insane or a charlatan.

 

[Horatius]

I have recommended that you wait for a public demonstration by a disinterested third party and examine the evidence before concluding that there is nothing here.

And if this were a purely scientific discussion, you might have a point. But it isn't a purely scientific discussion. Rossi isn't telling other scientists he's found an interesting quirk that he's continuing to investigate; he's actively soliciting for customers and investors, claiming to already have a fully functional device.

At that point, it's no longer enough to "wait for a public demonstration by a disinterested third party", because if Rossi is a scam artist, there are already people being harmed by his actions. And if Rossi is a scam artist, he will do everything he can to ensure that there will never be "a public demonstration by a disinterested third party", as such a demonstration would be fatal to his scam*.

Rossi is the one who has chosen to go beyond a purely scientific discussion of his alleged discovery. He cannot (and you cannot, either) now complain that we are also going beyond a purely scientific discussion.




*And indeed, that seems so far to be exactly what we see him doing. Every excuse he comes up with to avoid a public demonstration by a disinterested third party reinforces the conclusion that he's nothing more than a scam artist.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

It's probably come up already somewhere in the close to 3,000 posts in this thread but...
What does everyone think of Rossi's criminal past?

 

[Craig B]

It's probably come up already somewhere in the close to 3,000 posts in this thread but...
What does everyone think of Rossi's criminal past?

His fanboys seem to think he was the victim of corrupt politicians who changed the environmental laws, penalising his "trash to motor fuel" operation, Petroldragon. Another alleged culprit is the Mafia, which allegedly wished to protect its dominance over the Italian refuse disposal industry. So while he was charged dozens of times for violations of environmental and other laws, it was all a plot against him. Be assured, this has indeed come up in the last 3,000 posts.

 

[Horatius]

It's probably come up already somewhere in the close to 3,000 posts in this thread but...
What does everyone think of Rossi's criminal past?

It's another piece of evidence that weights the conclusion towards "fraud" rather than "mistaken" or "actually correct", but it's not actually a necessary piece of evidence for reaching that same conclusion. Even if we knew nothing of his past, his behavior during this whole affair is entirely consistent with a fraud, and inconsistent with an honest researcher.

 

[Aepervius]

What does everyone think of Rossi's criminal past?

Some of us do think it is a nice continuation from its criminal present.

 

[catsmate]

It's probably come up already somewhere in the close to 3,000 posts in this thread but...
What does everyone think of Rossi's criminal past?

It doesn't help his credibility.

 

[Pixel42]

http://boingboing.net/2012/09/06/179832.html

Mitt Romney: I do believe in basic science. I believe in participating in space. I believe in analysis of new sources of energy. I believe in laboratories, looking at ways to conduct electricity with -- with cold fusion, if we can come up with it. It was the University of Utah that solved that. We somehow can’t figure out how to duplicate it.

 

[Craig B]

@Pixel42

It was the University of Utah that solved that. We somehow can’t figure out how to duplicate it.

Romney needn't fret himself. Rossi's duplicating it big time - or so he would have potential licencees and investors believe!

 

[The Man]

http://boingboing.net/2012/09/06/179832.html

Mitt Romney: I do believe in basic science. I believe in participating in space. I believe in analysis of new sources of energy. I believe in laboratories, looking at ways to conduct electricity with -- with cold fusion, if we can come up with it. It was the University of Utah that solved that. We somehow can’t figure out how to duplicate it.

Oh my!

@Pixel42 Romney needn't fret himself. Rossi's duplicating it big time - or so he would have potential licencees and investors believe!

Indeed, but certainly a good cause for fretting (about Romney) by those with a bit more than just a belief "in basic science".

 

[Zeuzzz]

http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/n.../09/04/lenr-or-cold-fusion-progress-mid-2012/

Sterling Allen interviewed Michael McKubre of SRI International, the international research lab in Menlo Park, CA in a one and a half hour talk covering a wide range of topics. McKubre, long-time cold fusion researcher, has one of the best views of the LENR or Cold Fusion field with experience to match. Allen offers great enthusiasm and good journalist skills to get information acquired and presented. Here we’ll cover some of the gentlemen’s high points of the discussion. The full report by Allen is this link.

First up is the scale of the National Instruments Week (NIWeek) convention in Texas a few weeks ago. The attendance was over 3800 people and 110 journalists registered. That size of an event is quite noteworthy for something the science establishment and academia plus the Patent Office still reject.

Was it "3800 people and 110 journalists" but no scientists?

Anyway, cold fusion is definitely not an area I know well, but if they are getting funding and publishing results for this LENR fusion then what's the big deal? Other more mainstream fusion methods that are fully respected and well developed have not met the Lawson criterion and have also been largely unsuccessful for the last fifty years too.

 

[Aepervius]

http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/n.../09/04/lenr-or-cold-fusion-progress-mid-2012/




Was it "3800 people and 110 journalists" but no scientists?

Anyway, cold fusion is definitely not an area I know well, but if they are getting funding and publishing results for this LENR fusion then what's the big deal? Other more mainstream fusion methods that are fully respected and well developed have not met the Lawson criterion and have also been largely unsuccessful for the last fifty years too.

LENR is not quite "there" I would say as established phenomenon by fact, but this thread is more about the cold fusion scam claim by Andrea Rossi and co.

 

[Horatius]

First up is the scale of the National Instruments Week (NIWeek) convention in Texas a few weeks ago. The attendance was over 3800 people and 110 journalists registered. That size of an event is quite noteworthy for something the science establishment and academia plus the Patent Office still reject.

Was it "3800 people and 110 journalists" but no scientists?

http://www.ni.com/niweek/

August 6-9, 2012 - Austin Convention Center, Austin, Texas
NIWeek, the annual global conference on graphical system design, brings together more than 3,000 leading engineers and scientists across a spectrum of industries, from automotive to telecommunications to robotics to energy. They gather each year to learn new technology that provides disruptive competitive advantages when developing software-defined systems for measurement and control. Since its inception 18 years ago, NIWeek has delivered technical networking and instruction with interactive sessions by NI R&D engineers and guest lecturers; targeted industry summits; hands-on workshops; exhibitions on the latest advancements in design, research, and test; and keynote presentations from leading technology thought leaders. Past keynote speakers include Dr. Neil Gershenfeld of MIT Media, Dr. Michio Kaku of City College of New York, and Tim Samaras of Discovery Channel’s “Storm Chasers.” Past attendees include engineers, scientists, and executives from organizations such as Boeing, CERN, John Deere, ST-Ericsson, UC Berkeley, and hundreds more. Join us to learn how you can accelerate productivity, innovation, and discovery with National Instruments.

Yeah, I'll just leave that hanging out there, and allow you to draw your own conclusions on how trustworthy these guys are.

 

[Dancing David]

One more day for Rossi to make that December deadline!

 

[dlorde]

Never mind December, February is the next big date, with public viewing in May/June (and public lynching in July/August?)

Early in November, Rossi said:

“Yes, Leonardo Corp is very much powerful now. I can already say that the first 1 MW hot cat will go in operation within February 2013. It will not be a military application, therefore selected persons will be allowed to visit it. It will be installed in a big power production and distribution plant. This is the new. The plant is made in the USA. An extremely important agreement has been signed after the tests of the Hot Cat, which are going on since June in the USA and in Italy. The details will be communicated only after the plant will have been working for enough time to be visitable, also to avoid clubs in the wheels. That’s all I can say right now.”

 

[CORed]

Never mind December, February is the next big date, with public viewing in May/June (and public lynching in July/August?)

Early in November, Rossi said:

I'm not sure the public lynching will happen. The date will be pushed back again. Anybody who hasn't figured out by now that Rossi is FOS probably never will. A major breakthrough will be a couple of months in the future until Rossi runs out of suckers. And if what P. T. Barnum is alleged to have said about suckers is correct, that may be never.

 

[Aepervius]

Seeing how he already admitted to the US authority there was nothing radioactive in his gizmo, I am wondering how that lame duck can still go on.






Ho wait Steorn went on for a lot of year too. Nevermind energy woo believer are easy to latch.

 

[Horatius]

So, the latest Cold Fusion thread made me wonder what's up with Rossi's patent applications. The US site is acting weird, but the European Patent Office has all sorts of neat things listed in the last year and a half:

https://register.epo.org/espacenet/...05&lng=en&tab=doclist&d-16544-o=1&d-16544-s=1

This is by far the most submissions by third parties I've ever seen for a patent application, both positive and negative. And if you look at the examiner's report issued Oct. 19, 2012, the Examiner was obviously paying attention. They noted Rossi's statements about the necessity of the catalyst, and the fact that this catalyst is not identified in the patent application, so that's a win for us . The examiner also raises several other points that could also result in the patent being denied.

As of this month, Rossi's agents have requested an extension of the time limit to respond to that report. That's not too unusual, though, so don't get excited just yet.