Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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Dancing David said:
And who are these wealthy investors, more song and dance from Rossi, just like the bogus person on his board?
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Well I'd like to know that myself. I have a few more references I need to check out but did read somewhere that he has an agreement with the US government. But again, I'd have to go back and dig that out.
 
Thon Brocket said:
I'm sorry, Aepervius - and please understand that I'm not trying to be rude - I simply don't understand what you're trying to say. Rossi needs to protect himself against state robbery by whatever means are available to him. I see Stremmenos's function as advising upon, managing and executing those means, in the light of his previous form as a diplomat. He's the fixer. Everybody in business knows what a fixer does, and acknowledges the utility of the office (if not the desirability, for the fastidious). I just don't see what your continued objection to that uncontroversial observation could be.
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Let me repeat in a clear manner :
whatever you think a fixer does or is, whatever you think a particular individual is good at negociation, there is no way whatsoever you can protect yourself against a governement taking your invention for free in the name of "security" , "well being of the nation" or pure and simple "militaristic interrest". Heck in some case they just need to declare an emergency, and poof there are international framework allowing them to bypass patent protection. And there is nothing the patent holder can do, short of asking another governement to help them pressure that country back in line.

I do wonder why this is so hard for you to accept this.

Repeat after me : If a country governement choose to roll over a patent , they can. And a clean energy production method would be one where I would expect everybody and their neighbor to jump over to wean off coal, nuclear and gas.

PS: "fixer" is used as negociator by only a small subset of people, for the majority a fixer is an heroin addict injecting itsself a shoot. Just sayin'.
 
attaboy said:
First of all, once they jump on the cold fusion bandwagon, any cold fusion, they risk being labeled as quacks by their colleagues, or worse. Then, if it all goes down the tubes their very career is at stake. I think it takes tremendous guts when all they needed to do is sit on the sidelines and wait.
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Horse Manure.

All they have to do is be RIGHT, no matter how "quackish" the sub-field seems before, once there is proven success, they will be heroes, perhaps even more so because they gambled and won.

Truth will trump preconceived distaste and suspicion.

You should have understood this, as a physical scientist (chemist) yourself.

Cheers,

Dave
 
attaboy said:
Sure there's truth in what you say, but all in all, the fact that he has attracted wealthy investors speaks volumes to me.
I believe you'll find that there is some controversy over who that quote should be attributed to.
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If I wanted to pick on people, I might choose to call people who said that "Mulders" (referencing "The X-Files") because they "WANT TO BELIEVE!", but I won't do that to you (until you prove you deserve it).:D:D:cool:

And did you not notice the [mis-?] i put in there?

... [mis-?]attributed ...
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:D

Cheers,

Dave
 
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Aepervius said:
If a country governement choose to roll over a patent , they can.
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I've acknowledged that - I believe courteously - two or three times already. I expressly stated it to be the case in the very first line of my first post in this discussion and I have subsequently reiterated it. I find myself beginning to get just a little warm under the collar that you will not acknowledge that acknowledgement, and continue to address me on that basis.

That a government CAN rob you is a truism. Please read that sentence carefully and refrain from stating or implying in any reply you make to me that I don't understand or accept that that is the case.

I make a separate and distinct point - that a government MAY elect NOT to rob you; to rob you of a little or everything; to rob you by taxation or confiscation or regulation or corruption; or to accomplish its ends by fining you or imprisoning you or exiling you or murdering you; publicly and by the rules, or by stealth at dead of night. Its policies and actions are vastly complex and opaque, its weltumschau wholly cynical and self-interested and its practitioners commonly corrupt and incompetent. And so clever and experienced and well-connected men like, I am sure, Stremmenos can and do use the dark political mazes to influence, coax, bribe, persuade (but not, I ask you to note, coerce) state policy to the advantage of their clients. Whatever your opinion may be, such an ability is a most saleable commodity; particularly to such a promising target for state rapacity as Rossi's thingummyjig represents. It is my opinion, and I advance it only as an opinion, that Stremmenos fulfills this function. Consider also that even if the enterprise is fraudulent, the utility of a fixer - the "white cushion" of the Sicilian brotherhoods - remains.

I ask you to direct your no-doubt powerful intellect to the clear distinction between the two separate points I have just enumerated. So far, in this entertaining exchange of ideas, you have persistently confused or conflated the two. Your reasons for doing so remain unclear to me; but if you find yourself at this point still unable to apprehend the distinction kindly do not address me again.

As to usage, in the Middle East at least, and to a lesser extent in the Anglosphere, the word "fixer", and indeed the concept it denotes, is current. If it offends you, substitute "political consultant" or even "PR man". It is simply a label; the function it denotes remains unaffected.

You're wrong about the "heroin" thing, incidentally. "Fix" is current. To my knowledge "fixer" is not in use in that context. Just sayin'.

Finally, for the record, I repeat that I take no position on the validity of Rossi's claims, and am content to abide the outcome of his October demonstration.
 
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"And so clever and experienced and well-connected men like, I am sure, Stremmenos can and do use the dark political mazes to influence, coax, bribe, persuade (but not, I ask you to note, coerce) state policy to the advantage of their clients. "

CT forum is this way ----> use forum index and search for conspiracy theory

When normal procurement are involved, then it is a stink normal negociation and you do not need a special persons, no more special to any other type of procuration, and almost certainly somebody already in the industry is 1000 more useful than an ex ambasssador or using illegal or underhanded means.
 
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attaboy said:
Like I said earlier, the measurements would have to be stone age crude to cause the massive effect Rossi has reported to be refuted. It's hard for me to believe his equipment would be so imprecise as to put this massive effect in question.
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Really, that is not an answer that is a variation on argument from incedulity.

May I ask you :

How did they measure the heat out put?

Do you know?
 
attaboy said:
Well I'd like to know that myself. I have a few more references I need to check out but did read somewhere that he has an agreement with the US government. But again, I'd have to go back and dig that out.
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In the past, in this case we have ;
the name of a company that signed a deal with Rossi, not that they are ivesting. More likely that they will help distribute, once the production model exists.

So no investigation by them, no way to say "But these smart people would not do something dumb".
 
Somebody is investing because rossi was paid a licensing fee, and someone is paying for the power plant when it's up and running. Like many scientists shy about cold fusion so may be the investors.
 
CaveDave said:
Horse Manure.

All they have to do is be RIGHT, no matter how "quackish" the sub-field seems before, once there is proven success, they will be heroes, perhaps even more so because they gambled and won.

Truth will trump preconceived distaste and suspicion.

You should have understood this, as a physical scientist (chemist) yourself.

Cheers,

Dave
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I don't know what world you live in but being RIGHT doesn't count for a whole lot in some circles. But of course if I say more I'm liable to be accused of conspiracy theory.
 
Rossi has certainly been given enough rope to hang himself if he's a fraud. 100 watts in and 10,000 watts out seems like extraordinary evidence, and there could hardly be enough measurement error to erase that gain. It would have to be some amazing trickery that a lot of bright people are missing. With all the anxiety, October seems a long way away, but it's really not. He has boxed himself in with a short time frame. If there are delays, what credibility he has, will disipate rapidly.
 
That evidence claim was observed and measured by others although I understand you don't accept it.
 
In the P&F era with test tube experiments and very small amounts of energy gain, I can see where measurement error was a big issue. I don't think a junior high science class could mess up the results on the scale of Rossi.
 
attaboy said:
I would agree with you for issues that are not well known, and have not been given the awful reputation of cold fusion.
But Cold Fusion is different. The issue very well known among scientists in the areas of Physics and Chemistry. The bad rap that it got is so bad that only a very few scientists would even go near it, let alone actually perform experiments. As you well know, the US patent department has refused in the past to even look at cold fusion claims. I say that yes, if a scientist gets involved with cold fusion (s)he's really sticking his neck out
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And you cold say the same thing about straight-up perpetual motion devices, which is what the example I mentioned was, and what the Steorn Orbo was. And yet, in both cases, they had real scientists taking a serious look at their claims. How is it that "cold fusion" is so much more risky than perpetual motion?
 
There is a growing list of scientists that accept lenr...and Rossi for that matter. Some do look.
 
unclep2k said:
There is a growing list of scientists that accept lenr...and Rossi for that matter. Some do look.
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That some do look isn't the issue. He's trying to paint that looking as some great act of courage in the face of massive attempts at suppressing such enquiries, which is just plain silly.
 
I don't think that's silly. Lenr is starting to become accepted now, and it probably doesn't take great courage anymore to take a look, but the guys that stuck with it right after the great debunking are true heros if this ever becomes a world energy source.
 
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