Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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unclep2k said:
I'll be here Dec 1. I'm not sure myself about Rossi, but there are people that wouldn't believe in this device if they were boiling to death in the water it was heating.
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I don't subsist on faith. If you like to breath vapor-ware, be my guest. But be ready to gasp at air much more often than I'll be boiled (if ever).
 
attaboy said:
Well I'm sure these investors can be pretty "slick". But do you truthfully believe they are trying to pull the "Greater Fool" principle, especially since they know they might eventually have to find some really great fool which is unlikely for them to find.
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Seriously?:rolleyes:

I cannot recall EVER seeing any evidence of a dearth of credulous persons in this world, many of them controlling "money" they can willingly part with.

The older I get (read: accumulated Life-Experiences), the more certain of this I become.

Just think of that quip often [mis-?]attributed to Phineas Taylor Barnum:
"There's a sucker born every minute, and two to take him".

Cheers,

Dave
 
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attaboy said:
Come on now, I can't believe that you would believe that Essén and Kullander would get involved with this if they weren't certain that either 1) they personally had all the qualifications to evaluate E-cat or 2) they could count on others with greater expertise to jump in and help evaluate what they had observed from the Rossi demo. Do you have any idea of how much guts it took for these two to get involved with this in the first place??
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Dunning–Kruger effect, anyone?

Dave
 
unclep2k said:
excaza wasn't high temperature superconductivity first proposed as a mathematical model and later confirmed with experiments? Quite different from an inventor putting together bits and pieces of past research, adding his own touch, and coming up with something that works. If Ross's new fire does indeed work, it worked before anyone knew why.
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Does anyone else see how much the entire house-of-cards depends on this one, tiny, SPECULATIVE, word?

"If frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their rump when they landed".

Cheers,

Dave
 
My, but you seem to be keen to get a row going. I'm just speculating - no more than that - on where Stremmenos fits into the picture.
Aepervius said:
Eminent Domain. *POOF* Finished. No outsmarting.
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Sure. But it's still kinda unusual. Even governments, mostly, have a rude understanding of geese and golden eggs. For an expropriation to happen, somebody in there has to make that decision, and the fixer's job is to ensure firstly that those same somebodies are kept sweet enough so that it doesn't happen, and secondly that his client has whatever legal and other tactical defences may be available to him to discourage the pirate. Stremmenos as an ex-ambassador is certainly well-versed in these dark arts, and will be worth his bread and salt. That's all I'm saying.

And all of this under the assumption that it's all real. Which I'm happy to acknowledge may not be the case.

Till October.
 
Horatius said:
Actually not very much. Skeptics and scientists love getting involved in weird stuff. Heck, we've had more than one person just in this thread offer to test Rossi's device for him.
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First of all, once they jump on the cold fusion bandwagon, any cold fusion, they risk being labeled as quacks by their colleagues, or worse. Then, if it all goes down the tubes their very career is at stake. I think it takes tremendous guts when all they needed to do is sit on the sidelines and wait.
 
CaveDave said:
Seriously?:rolleyes:

I cannot recall EVER seeing any evidence of a dearth of credulous persons in this world, many of them controlling "money" they can willingly part with.

The older I get (read: accumulated Life-Experiences), the more certain of this I become.

Just think of that quip often [mis-?]attributed to Phineas Taylor Barnum:
"There's a sucker born every minute, and two to take him".

Cheers,

Dave
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Sure there's truth in what you say, but all in all, the fact that he has attracted wealthy investors speaks volumes to me.
I believe you'll find that there is some controversy over who that quote should be attributed to.
 
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attaboy said:
First of all, once they jump on the cold fusion bandwagon, any cold fusion, they risk being labeled as quacks by their colleagues, or worse. Then, if it all goes down the tubes their very career is at stake. I think it takes tremendous guts when all they needed to do is sit on the sidelines and wait.
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Yeah, sure, except, you don't have to jump on the cold fusion "bandwagon" to test these devices. In fact, it's better if you don't.

Here in Ottawa, a few years back, we had a local guy making some claims about getting free energy out of electric motors. Several of our Ottawa Skeptics engineers, and some local University professors, went out of their way to take a look at what he had, and report back to the rest of us. It took no "courage", they were just curious.

Believe it or not, there are people in the world who will take a look at weird stuff just for fun, even if they think it's 99.9999999999% probably crap.

Heck, take a look around the JREF forum, and you'll see exactly what I mean.
 
Thon Brocket said:
My, but you seem to be keen to get a row going. I'm just speculating - no more than that - on where Stremmenos fits into the picture.

Sure. But it's still kinda unusual. Even governments, mostly, have a rude understanding of geese and golden eggs. For an expropriation to happen, somebody in there has to make that decision, and the fixer's job is to ensure firstly that those same somebodies are kept sweet enough so that it doesn't happen, and secondly that his client has whatever legal and other tactical defences may be available to him to discourage the pirate. Stremmenos as an ex-ambassador is certainly well-versed in these dark arts, and will be worth his bread and salt. That's all I'm saying.

And all of this under the assumption that it's all real. Which I'm happy to acknowledge may not be the case.

Till October.
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There is no question of goose and golden egg. It isn't as if accaparing the plan of a working device would kill the goose / lower the device value: on the contrary the plan would be the *ONLY* stuff of interrest. What the heck of additional value would there be to make Rossi happy ? And at the moment the whole world would have an interrest into this.

The fact is, there is nothing you can do to prevent any governement to get the plan if valid. That is a red herring.


Anotehr one I might add.
 
attaboy said:
First of all, once they jump on the cold fusion bandwagon, any cold fusion, they risk being labeled as quacks by their colleagues, or worse. Then, if it all goes down the tubes their very career is at stake. I think it takes tremendous guts when all they needed to do is sit on the sidelines and wait.
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They could also ask for better measurement rather than jumping on the band wagon. I mean really do you think that an alleged presentation that relies on totally non standard procedures demonstrates something?

What bandwagan? The poor measurement one?
 
attaboy said:
Sure there's truth in what you say, but all in all, the fact that he has attracted wealthy investors speaks volumes to me.
I believe you'll find that there is some controversy over who that quote should be attributed to.
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And who are these wealthy investors, more song and dance from Rossi, just like the bogus person on his board?
 
I'm sorry, Aepervius - and please understand that I'm not trying to be rude - I simply don't understand what you're trying to say. Rossi needs to protect himself against state robbery by whatever means are available to him. I see Stremmenos's function as advising upon, managing and executing those means, in the light of his previous form as a diplomat. He's the fixer. Everybody in business knows what a fixer does, and acknowledges the utility of the office (if not the desirability, for the fastidious). I just don't see what your continued objection to that uncontroversial observation could be.
 
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The point is that there are no demonstrated effects, then peopel start saying "theer are wealthy investots interested", so who are they?

It could also be a come one, a gimmic, a ploy to fluff interest in a non-event.

Rossi needs to show an effect which he could do easily and a low cost, why hasn't he?
 
unclep2k said:
Attaboy here are a couple links I had handy on the two investment groups. The Greek and the Us investors. I do have a link somewhere saying the US group has put together 280 mil in investment capital. I'll post it if I find it. http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece
http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/05/05/possible-listing-of-defkalion-e-cat-licensee-board-members
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Not blaming you uncle2pk, this is the only source of these alleged 'wealthy investors'.

So far Attaboy , zero from you.

Here we go, a vague allusion to a source that says $280,000,000 in investment capital, but still no link.

So we have one source for a name of an alleged company:

Ampenergo

But guess what every single refence on the first page of Google goes back to the same source
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...pw.&fp=d3ce81fc79b01d3c&biw=1003&bih=567&bs=1


So all we know is that four people have made a deal with Rossi
Karl Norwood, Richard Noceti, Robert Gentile and Craig Cassarino

And that is it, most likely contingent upon him producing the production model.

So NO wealthy investors giving Rossi money.

One, count it one hit on yahoo News

http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/s...mVyZ28-?ei=UTF-8&fr=news-us-ss&c=&p=Ampenergo

This is not investment yet, this is caleld hedging a bet.
Not a single Wall Street Journal hit, no Forbes.

And a board of directors for
Defakalion

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011...ng-of-defkalion-e-cat-licensee-board-members/

This is nothing, whne they put up money and get money that is something.
 
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Horatius said:
Yeah, sure, except, you don't have to jump on the cold fusion "bandwagon" to test these devices. In fact, it's better if you don't.

Here in Ottawa, a few years back, we had a local guy making some claims about getting free energy out of electric motors. Several of our Ottawa Skeptics engineers, and some local University professors, went out of their way to take a look at what he had, and report back to the rest of us. It took no "courage", they were just curious.

Believe it or not, there are people in the world who will take a look at weird stuff just for fun, even if they think it's 99.9999999999% probably crap.

Heck, take a look around the JREF forum, and you'll see exactly what I mean.
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I would agree with you for issues that are not well known, and have not been given the awful reputation of cold fusion.
But Cold Fusion is different. The issue very well known among scientists in the areas of Physics and Chemistry. The bad rap that it got is so bad that only a very few scientists would even go near it, let alone actually perform experiments. As you well know, the US patent department has refused in the past to even look at cold fusion claims. I say that yes, if a scientist gets involved with cold fusion (s)he's really sticking his neck out
 
Dancing David said:
They could also ask for better measurement rather than jumping on the band wagon. I mean really do you think that an alleged presentation that relies on totally non standard procedures demonstrates something?
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Like I said earlier, the measurements would have to be stone age crude to cause the massive effect Rossi has reported to be refuted. It's hard for me to believe his equipment would be so imprecise as to put this massive effect in question.
 
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