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CIT.....Time to call it a day

Name them then.

In five minutes on Google, I was able to read reports prepared by the Radiologists and Forensic Dentists who worked on identifying the victims at the Pentagon.

Five minutes.

TC is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

What does he care, he and the fools at CIT have been exposed as frauds.
 
jaydeehess said:
round, and round we go............

The one interesting thing in this thread was TC saying that he might accept that the plane hit the Pentagon.

TC rely:
I stated for argument sake I conceded impact, not that I believe it. I just want to take the discussion off of "flyover". When you guys can't attack the flyover your ammo gets really really low.

Actually we then could move on to the physical evidence such as the human remains identified as those of the people on Flight 77, the downed lamp posts and the physical evidence of the plane in the Pentagon not to mention the witnesses who saw the plane along the accepted flight path.


The CIT aside, I have to wonder then, are we here all in agreement then that the plane hit the Pentagon?

TC?
NO.

Thought I'd ask. So your concedeing the point was just a thought experiment and we can continue to throw at you and the CIT that every single damned witnesses in a position to see it confirms that the plane hit the Pentagon, that none of those witnesses states they had thought it would hit an upper floor of the Pentagon and that in order to accept your own special witness's statements you absolutly must throw out the one thing that they all agree on
(since they do differ in where they thought the plane traveled).


If a plane hit the Pentagon then it solves the problem of the aircraft parts and the human remains.

Human remains are explained by the HUMAN OCCUPANTS INSIDE THE PENTAGON. Whoa, bet you never considered that before, huh?

I never considered that you would be so moronic as to not understand that if we are speaking about the plane impacting the building that I would be refering to the remains identified as belonging to the people who were recorded as being on Flight 77.


It solves the problem of how a bloody large portion of the ground level wall went missing and the 20 foot diamter hole in the second floor wall.
Where did the tail hit? Or is this the claim that requires engines tearing though the foundation which we all know didn't take place..........?

The tail did not tear through the building. It hit at close to a right angle to the floors whereas the wings hit parallel to the floors. The wing was tilted slightly to port and indeed where the higher starboard wing hit the floor of the second level it too did not penetrate.
The CIT still cannot explain with any theory what happened to all the concrete and brick of the 90 feet of ground floor wall. It is not on the grass in front so it must be in the building, but how can that be if the damage in the building was caused by an explosion in the building. The generator also move towards the building so we know that the explosion did not occur just outside the wall. we also see that only the ground floor wall and a circular portion of the second floor wall is penetrated which is also damage pattern that could not be accomplished by an explosion occuring outside the wall. Thus the damage to the wall is consistent with a bloody big object impacting it.



All that is left then is TC and CIT's claim that this plane came in on a flight path that put it to the north of the Citgo station.
That actually would be the claims from Sgt LaGasse, Sgt Brooks, Robert Turcios, Sean Boger, Levi Stephens. Don't forget Ed Paik. The mechanical damage requires the plane to remain on the South side of Columbia Pike at all times which Paik clearly disputes.

Fine, SOME of those do in fact state that the plane was south of the Citgo. Paik does not and his statements have been shown time and again to support the accepted flight path. Turcios changed his position for the flight path twice until Craig was satisfied with it.



So I would suggest you contact these individuals and ask them to provide the math to prove they are not liars which is what you all seem to think they are.

Once again neither I nor anyone here has ever stated that the witnesses are lieing. They are mistaken.


It also requires an explanation for the downed lamp poles.
Not our job.

So Lyte Trip did not go on and on in threads on this forum about the lamp posts and Lloyd England's account of the pole that landed on his car and claim that it was 'planted'? I must have been hallucinating. Hey, isn't that covered on the CIT website too?

In fact the light poles are one part of the physical evidence that illustrates that the witnesses who put the flight path to the north of the Citgo station are incorrect(not lieing). Thus in order to still hold that those statements are correct the CIT would have to explain how the physical evidence of those lamp poles came to be. IT IS YOUR JOB if you are going to contend that witnesses who put the flight path to the north of the Citgo station are correct!!



Finally it must require that any statements that put the plane south of the Cigo station be thrown out.
Please list all the "South" side of the Citgo witnesses now for references sake.

Been done many times before. Check Gravy's site perhaps and get back to me.


The CIT and TC ignore bank angle and g forces on the aircraft.
How fast was this plane traveling and how did we determine that?
What type of plane are we discussing?
And please provide proof of said plane.

Approx 500 MPH, a 757, its parts were discovered inside the Pentagon.

If you dispute the speed and the type of plane then by all means tell us how fast it was travelling and we will provide you with the bank angle and g forces on the plane. It would not matter the type of plane other than to determine if said type could withstand the turn. Then you might have to reconcile a type that could with what your own witnesses say they saw. (or throw out more of their statements)



The CIT and TC must postulate covert subterfuges that toppled poles or removed poles and planted broken ones at the time that the plane went by.
No we don't.

Well I know that no one on this side of the arguement postulated planted poles but for the life of me it seems that my memory of that fiction comes from having CIT members do so.



The CIT and TC claim over and over that 7 witnesses cannot all be wrong but do not reconcile the fact that they are now stating that all those who say the plane was to the south are wrong.
List of names ...................?????

Been done,, see above



To this end the again invoke a subterfuge that allows them to disregard many of these witnesses by claiming that they are not misremembering but rather that they are lieing.
WHO THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??????

How about Lloyd England the poor cabby that has been accused of being a gov't operative and lieing about his traumatic day on 9/11/01.



The fact is that the claims of subterfuge are made up entirely by the CIT.
Are you saying the witnesses are holographic visions of CIT's imagination?
They are fictions born in the minds of the CIT.
Yes, you are! HOLY ******!!! I bet theres some people in jail that don't believe Sgts LaGasse & Brooks aren't holograms!!! Hopefully they're not there based on anything those 2 police Sgts witnessed, right?

None of your witnesses say that broken lamp posts were planted or fell for no reason, nor do any of them say that the plane flew over the Pentagon. The witnesses are incorrect about some details, you guys take those errors and extrpolate them to ridiculous heights while throwing out the one thing that all witnesses agree on.
 
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I just cant believe what an insensitive thing for Dom to say when he typed this:
Please provide indisputable proof of AA77 passengers/crew remains inside the Pentagon. Please don't post pictures of victims that died at their desk from the bomb and claim their chairs are airplane seats.

Dom I thnk you should be aware how insensitive you are being.
That is a disgusting thing to say.
You should be ashamed
 
If they are right about the impact then they are right about the flight path, either way you still FAIL.

Do you get it yet?

Fail? Don't you get it? Just for the sake of debate, have you located the Boeing aircraft known as flight 77?
Have you located the passengers who were scheduled to be on flight 77?
If you have located them in a place other than the Pentagon, it would be extremely important that you notify the authorities immediately.
Have you been able to locate the plane and it's passengers? If so, where are they?
 
Fail? Don't you get it? Just for the sake of debate, have you located the Boeing aircraft known as flight 77?
Have you located the passengers who were scheduled to be on flight 77?
If you have located them in a place other than the Pentagon, it would be extremely important that you notify the authorities immediately.
Have you been able to locate the plane and it's passengers? If so, where are they?

Which again brings up the fact that if physical evidence backs the contention that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon with all souls on borad killed, AND a group then comes along and wants to dispute that, then it is incumbant upon them (ITS THEIR JOB!) to explain the physical evidence sufficiently in order to illustrate that their claim is not in error.

Lamp posts illustrate a flight path, damage patterns illustrate a large object hit the building, eyewitnesses state that a plane hit the building, aircraft parts illustrate that it was a 757, DNA evidence illustrates that the people on board Flight 77 were on the plane that hit the building

To dispute that any one of those points and form a wildy differing senario of the events at the Pentagon requires that all of those points be addressed.
The CIT cannot do that without resorting to Tom Clancy style fictions.
 
Geez TC is now a parrot for Aldo
Originally Posted by TC329
If they are right about the impact then they are right about the flight path, either way you still FAIL.

Do you get it yet?
 
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TC329 said:
So I would suggest you contact these individuals and ask them to provide the math to prove they are not liars which is what you all seem to think they are.

I wouldn't call someone a liar, unless I had proof that they knew otherwise.

Nobody is asking them for the math. The people of this forum have asked you for the math, to show a coherent flight path using the "North Side" testimony.

TC329 said:
Please provide indisputable proof of AA77 passengers/crew remains inside the Pentagon

There was a plane. Now there is not a plane.

Please refute this by pointing me in the direction that the plane (that never hit the Pentagon) is still in existence. If you can do that, you'd have some proof.

If you don't. All you have is a few witnesses and an inability to accept reasonable explanations.

eta: What kind of world do you live in where you can just dismiss evidence as being "faked" with no proof? This is insane. If this is the level of debate which will take place. I will declare that all North Side Citgo witnesses, were planted by the CIT. I have just as much proof for that claim, as you do for fake DNA evidence. Where does that leave us?

Again. I ask you, TC. Let's dismiss the witness testimony. What else do you have?
 
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What does he care, he and the fools at CIT have been exposed as frauds.


The only way they're keeping their nonsense alive is by feigning debate with "us". I mean, other truthers won't even give them the time of day. They have to bring their delusion here to receive the life-saving chest-beatings it so desperately needs.

I'm not sure why anyone would continually engage them, even out of amusement. Never before have I felt that "ignore them and they'll go away" could be more fitting. As I said, even other truthers ignore their nonsense. I don't think the usual "we do it for the lurkers" really applies here, either...

Just my US$.02...
 
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It is pleasing to see that the new Loose Change forum is getting very little traffic.
 
Please provide indisputable proof of AA77 passengers/crew remains inside the Pentagon. Please don't post pictures of victims that died at their desk from the bomb and claim their chairs are airplane seats.

"The government says so" isn't acceptable enough to me.

I don't believe their remains were recovered.

O.K. What would you consider indisputable proof? I'm serious. Exactly what would you consider proof that is indesputable?

How about the team that recoverd the remains. No, they work for the government. Can't trust them

Ok. How about the coroner and forensic teams that identified the DNA. No. Government workers too. Part of the conspiracy too.

How about, if by some miracle, I am able to exhume the remains and have them tested? Would that be good enough? Oooooo wait. The passengers could have been killed elsewhere and the remains delivered to the families for internment.

So TC what would be indisputable evidence in your eyes?

Oh BTW, show me indisputable proof that you are who you say you are. And don't use birth certificates or driver's license. Those can be faked. Or friends either. People can be paid off to lie for you.

Do you see the problem TC? You've already made up your mind. No amount of any evidence presented will be good enough for you.
 
It also requires an explanation for the downed lamp poles.
Not our job.
So Lyte Trip did not go on and on in threads on this forum about the lamp posts and Lloyd England's account of the pole that landed on his car and claim that it was 'planted'? I must have been hallucinating. Hey, isn't that covered on the CIT website too?

In fact the light poles are one part of the physical evidence that illustrates that the witnesses who put the flight path to the north of the Citgo station are incorrect(not lieing). Thus in order to still hold that those statements are correct the CIT would have to explain how the physical evidence of those lamp poles came to be. IT IS YOUR JOB if you are going to contend that witnesses who put the flight path to the north of the Citgo station are correct!!



The CIT and TC must postulate covert subterfuges that toppled poles or removed poles and planted broken ones at the time that the plane went by.
No we don't.
Well I know that no one on this side of the arguement postulated planted poles but for the life of me it seems that my memory of that fiction comes from having CIT members do so.


To this end the again invoke a subterfuge that allows them to disregard many of these witnesses by claiming that they are not misremembering but rather that they are lieing.
WHO THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??????
How about Lloyd England the poor cabby that has been accused of being a gov't operative and lieing about his traumatic day on 9/11/01.
.

http://72.32.2.238/forumlive/showpost.php?p=2904096&postcount=5

quoting Lyte Trip;
We have recently released a 20 minute short giving the special attention to Lloyd England's account that it deserves as well

On the linked web page:
Watch all 3 of these important video shorts examining the highest profile suspect witnesses that were allegedly on Route 27 at the time of the attack.

...The First Known Accomplice?

(featuring Lloyd England)

....The USA Today Parade

(featuring Mike Walter and Joel Sucherman)

Now take a look at the actual point of view that witnesses on Route 27 would have. Not that many would be in a position to see the plane at all but most of those who could still wouldn’t have been able to see the alleged impact. We examine the suspicious coincidences surrounding the high number of USA Today reporters and editors and feature our exclusive interview with Joel Sucherman.



TC, how do you reconcile your own statements above with the wording used to describe Lloyd England as an "accomplice" and the description of Walters and Sucherman as "suspicious" if the CIT is not fabricating a story of subterfuge?

TC, how do you reconcile your statements above that it is not the job of the CIT to explain the physical evidence when in fact the CIT has called Lloyd England a liar and accomplice because they do not believe his account of the pole hitting his car?

Your statements above are in direct contradiction with the web pages produced by the CIT.

http://72.32.2.238/forumlive/showpost.php?p=2804458&postcount=335
 
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The problem for you is while you can summarily dismiss an eyewitness you cannot dismiss seven eyewitnesses corroborating the same claim.

You seemed to have missed the point.

Let me repost the article for you:

HUNDREDS of people watched the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 near Kennedy International Airport in New York on Nov. 12, and in the course of 93 seconds they apparently saw hundreds of different things.
According to the National Transportation Safety Board, which announced this month that it had gathered 349 eyewitness accounts through interviews or written statements, 52 percent said they saw a fire while the plane was in the air. The largest number (22 percent) said the fire was in the fuselage, but a majority cited other locations, including the left engine, the right engine, the left wing, the right wing or an unspecified engine or wing.
Nearly one of five witnesses said they saw the plane make a right turn; an equal number said it was a left turn. Nearly 60 percent said they saw something fall off the plane; of these, 13 percent said it was a wing. (In fact, it was the vertical portion of the tail.)
The investigators say there is no evidence in the wreckage or on the flight recorders of an in-flight fire or explosion. A plane breaking up in flight, as this one did, might in its last moments produce flashes of fire from engines ripping loose, but the idea that the plane caught fire is a trick of memory, they say.
None of this is surprising, said Dr. Charles R. Honts, a professor of psychology at Boise State University and the editor of the Journal of Credibility Assessment and Witness Psychology. ''Eyewitness memory is reconstructive,'' said Dr. Honts, who is not associated with the safety board. ''The biggest mistake you can make is to think about a memory like it's a videotape; there's not a permanent record there.''
The problem, he said, is that witnesses instinctively try to match events with their past experiences: ''How many plane crashes have you witnessed in real life? Probably none. But in the movies? A lot. In the movies, there's always smoke and there's always fire.''
As a result, the safety board generally doesn't place much value on eyewitness reports if data and voice recorders are available. For many investigators, the only infallible witness is a twisted piece of metal.
Benjamin A. Berman, a former chief of major aviation investigations at the safety board, said pilots actually make the worst witnesses, because their technical knowledge can lead them too quickly to identify a mechanical problem that may not have occurred. ''Children make among the best witnesses,'' he added, ''because they don't tend to place an interpretation on what they've seen.''
The safety board's skepticism of eyewitness accounts was deepened by the explosion of TWA Flight 800 off Long Island six years ago: hundreds of people saw an upward streak that they assumed was a missile, although investigators said it was the body of the plane itself, streaking upward after the forward portion had fallen off following a fuel tank explosion.
THAT disaster highlighted another pitfall for investigators, Mr. Berman and others say: F.B.I. agents asked witnesses where the missile came from, presupposing the presence of a weapon. ''It wasn't good aircraft accident investigation,'' Mr. Berman said.
There are other well-known cases of witness error, including the crash of a Lauda Air Boeing 767 near Bangkok in May 1991. Witnesses said they heard a bomb and saw the plane fall in flames, but it turned out to be a mechanical problem.
So why do investigators bother asking witnesses at all? Dr. Bernard S. Loeb, who retired as the safety board's director of aviation safety last year, said, ''In the case of 587, it's unlikely that the witnesses will provide much to help the investigation, but you never know that when you begin an investigation -- where you're going to get important leads, from the recorders, from witnesses, from the structure itself.''
And in any crash, he said, conflicting witness statements can still be useful. ''What was very clear from the Flight 800 witnesses was that many did see something up in the sky,'' he said.
Even if the accounts are likely to be wrong, they are still routinely gathered and evaluated by both the board and police agencies. ''Can you imagine if we didn't interview the witnesses?'' said one current board official.
Mr. Berman, who left the board last year, said investigators may have released the summary of what the Flight 587 witnesses saw just to show publicly that the statements showed ''scatter'' -- an engineering term for plotted data that does not fit a pattern. A release at this late date is unusual, but a spokesman for the board, Ted Lopatkiewicz, said it was done because it was ready. But, he added, ''I don't think I'm making any news by saying that eyewitness testimony at a plane crash and probably at many traumatic events is unreliable.''
Witness statements can be more valuable in crashes of small planes that don't have flight data recorders or cockpit voice recorders, Mr. Berman said.
Mr. Loeb said his experience with witnesses had led him to question the reliability of criminal convictions based on eyewitness identifications. In Illinois, he noted, a commission appointed by the governor recommended in April that the death penalty not be applied to murder convictions based on a single eyewitness identification.
Mr. Loeb said his personal experience also played into his skepticism. Recently he and his wife saw a two-vehicle collision, and unlike plane crash witnesses, they both saw it from the same angle. Within moments, they disagreed about what they had seen. Among other key details, Mr. Loeb said he could not recall whether one of the vehicles had been a truck or an S.U.V.

Get it yet?
 
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Mr. Loeb said his personal experience also played into his skepticism. Recently he and his wife saw a two-vehicle collision, and unlike plane crash witnesses, they both saw it from the same angle. Within moments, they disagreed about what they had seen. Among other key details, Mr. Loeb said he could not recall whether one of the vehicles had been a truck or an S.U.V.

Do they disagree that two vehicles collided? No.
Do witnesses at the Pentagon disagree that the Plane hit the pentagon? No

Do they disagree what type of vehicles were involved? Yes
Do witnesses at the pentagon have different recollections of the flightpath? Yes

Do you see TC? Or are you still blinkered to the truth?
 
I remember when I was little I saw first hand one of my friends get hit by a car. To this day I still remember it incorrectly. My recollection requires an impossible scenario. I think my memory of the incident is based on what I assumed was how it was supposed to happen.
 

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