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CIT.....Time to call it a day

The problem for you is while you can summarily dismiss an eyewitness you cannot dismiss seven eyewitnesses corroborating the same claim.

Let me remind everyone here that one of JREF's favorite argument for the Pentagon attack is "people saw the plane hit".

If you would like to have a thread which debates the actual subject and includes not 1 single eyewitness account of what took place there I'm more than open to it but that definitely won't work well in your favor.

Yes but it was pointed out to my attention that we can't rely on eyewitnesses even when they corroborate each other.

I was told that we then have to lean towards the evidence which I am told proves AA77 impacted the Pentagon. So I asked for a thread to debate this topic without ever using any account from an eyewitness since they are all so unreliable.

Seems odd to me but I learn new things here all the time.

:D

Dom

I think this is an excellent idea. Let's toss out all the eyewitness testimony, especially since the vast majority of crime-fighting type people (police, judges, lawyers, etc) all agree on how undependable it is.

So, based on everything *except* the eyewitness testimony, TC, what proof do you have that the plane flew to the north of the Citgo?




Not our job.

Pardon me, but yes, that's exactly your job. See, let me explain how science works. There's a theory that explains your observations. Someone else comes along and thinks that the theory isn't sufficient to explain all the observations. So they come up with a new theory. For theat theory to be viable, however, it must explain not only the new observations, but also all the old ones. When Copernicus and Galileo posited the heliocentric theory, it explained the paths of the planets, but it didn't ignore the paths of the sun and moon.

So, for you to have a substitute theory, it cannot ignore the downed light poles that are perfectly explained by the official theory. To do so would be unscientific.

Please provide indisputable proof of AA77 passengers/crew remains inside the Pentagon. QUOTE]

Are you claiming that your 6 eyewitnesses are "indisputable proof"?
 
I remember when I was little I saw first hand one of my friends get hit by a car. To this day I still remember it incorrectly. My recollection requires an impossible scenario. I think my memory of the incident is based on what I assumed was how it was supposed to happen.

I just posted this in the McPadden thread:
Our memories are not tape recorders playing back exactly what was put into them. Every time you recall a memory, your brain re-interprets it in light of the current situation, mixing together with new data, and stores that away for the next time you recall it. That leads to the conclusion, which has been experimentally verified, that the more times you recall an event (like something traumatic), the less reliable your memory of it is.

A big part of being a skeptic is knowing the limitations of your own mind, what the ways are that you can commonly reach the wrong conclusion.
 
So will CIT create another "open letter" to law enforcement, the media, or other authoriites?
Hey think about it Lyte, Aldo, and TC!!
You can make them regsiter at your cool forum and make them by a DVD!!
CHA CHING!
 
So will CIT create another "open letter" to law enforcement, the media, or other authoriites?
Hey think about it Lyte, Aldo, and TC!!
You can make them regsiter at your cool forum and make them by a DVD!!
CHA CHING!

I hope they make a lot of money. And take that money and invest it wisely. Its going to take tens of thousands of dollars worth of Psychiatry for the lot of them to be able to function in society again.




And how did this thread evolve into a political discussion? Never mind PLEASE don't answer.
 
posted by TC
Not our job.
Pardon me, but yes, that's exactly your job. See, let me explain how science works. There's a theory that explains your observations. Someone else comes along and thinks that the theory isn't sufficient to explain all the observations. So they come up with a new theory. For theat theory to be viable, however, it must explain not only the new observations, but also all the old ones. When Copernicus and Galileo posited the heliocentric theory, it explained the paths of the planets, but it didn't ignore the paths of the sun and moon.

So, for you to have a substitute theory, it cannot ignore the downed light poles that are perfectly explained by the official theory. To do so would be unscientific.

Another example would be to use Einstein's theory of relativity and Newton's work on forces and gravitation.

When Einstein proposed his theory he did not ignore Newton. Newton's work indeed did function very well in calculating orbits and almost all other applications. Einstein's worked better on aspects in which Newton's equations did not. However it was incumbant upon Einstein to also show that his formulae also worked to arrive at the same conclusions as Newton's in the senarios in which Newton's already proved correct. If Einstein's theory had for instance, postulated that mass increased to approach infinity as velocity approached lightspeed but also came to the conclusion that at 1/100,000 lightspeed that a moving mass would have no momentum his theory would be shown to be in error.

The CIT requires a vast and unsubstantiated claim of a vast, complicated and wholly unneccessary conspiracy which includes the use of a D.C. area cab driver to plant fake evidence of the flight path, that the news organization of USA Today be co-opted to lie for that conspiracy among others.

It requires that one accept that this conspiracy needed a path of downed lamp poles to bolster the idea that a plane had hit the Pentagon and that a path was chosen to illustrate this yet another path was chosen for the supposed decoy aircraft.

It requires that faked DNA evidence of the souls on board Flight 77 be shown to have been in the Pentagon.

It requires that fake evidence of a Boeing 757 be placed in and around the Pentagon.

It requires that explosives be placed in the Pentagon and on the outside as well. It requires that a plane fly and perform a manouver that it could not do.

It requires that one ignore the questions concerning where the actual flight 77 and the souls on board went, and why there are no witnesses at all who saw a plane fly low and fast while just clearing the Pentagon.

It requires that one believe that Robert Turcois was incorrect in not one but two statements about where he saw the plane.

It requires that Robert Turcois believe that he saw the fireball before the plane hit the building while maintaining that the plane did hit the building thus producing a fireball.

It requires that only one of Paik's diagrams be accepted.

It requires that both Lagasse's line on the aerial picture which places the flight path well to the south of the Citgo AND Turcois' line on his copy of the same photo which places the plane actually directly overhead the station be accepted as showing the same thing when they do not.

,, and it requires that one accept one aspect of a half dozen witness's statements while ignoring the statements from more witnesses who do agree with the accepted flight path as well as other aspects of the witness statements they do like be ignored.

Please provide indisputable proof of AA77 passengers/crew remains inside the Pentagon.

Are you claiming that your 6 eyewitnesses are "indisputable proof"?

In fact they do make that claim.
 
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I wonder if Alwin and Craig tightened the leash on their doggy?
"hey man like how come you are not mentioning our forum or our DVD's over there at JREF?"
 
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At this point they have got to be wishing they never ever interviewed Paik.

No banking whatsoever over Paik's shop
very very fast description
Explosion heard within seconds. Keep in mind it takes sound over three seconds to reach Paik from the impact point. He is 3850 feet away. No slow speed possible.

Watch as their own witness debunks them. Pay special attention to every point he makes.

 
At this point they have got to be wishing they never ever interviewed Paik.

No banking whatsoever over Paik's shop
very very fast description
Explosion heard within seconds. Keep in mind it takes sound over three seconds to reach Paik from the impact point. He is 3850 feet away. No slow speed possible.

Watch as their own witness debunks them. Pay special attention to every point he makes.

No major banking, like he meant almost wings level (FDR shows shallow banks, maximum before impact/end of data 11 degrees, takes a loonnngggg time to turn at 11 degrees, and the plane had to be going about 700 plus feet a second. What antenna is he talking about? Did the plane clip the VOT tower?

Plus he puts 77 as low as the Annex, that means about 50 feet a second to impact the Pentagon. There goes the impossible dive and 11.2 G, I pulled this out of my ear physics/math project by jdx.

For anyone watching that is new to 9/11 truth junk; you can usually take what 9/11 truth produces and debunk them. 9/11 truth is the group who is anti-math, anti-physics, anti-logic, a great example of 1984 groupthink and doubletalk, as they try to project their only traits to others.
 
TC hasn't returned because he's waiting for word from his masters at CIT/PffffT. Right now they're all scratching their heads, furrowing their brows in a vain effort to understand the math.

It's all simple arithmetic! I intentionally avoided formulas. All of the info is direct from that online calculator. I wanted to avoid what Mackey encountered with the accusation of using incorrect formulas, etc. Heck, even the kids should be able to use that calculator.

JDX really likes those online calculators and all the numbers are in agreement with the charts on the .pdf I linked to and to my own calculations, as well. Unless I made a simple mistake the numbers are bang on. Actually, they're slightly skewed in CIT's favor. If I had wanted to make it more difficult that could be done.

My, my now what do we do. Resort to space beams or alien flying saucers?
 
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I think that they plotted this all so that they could raise the gas prices at the Citgo without anyone noticing.
A clue that they COULD HAVE moved the WHOLE STATION was the fact that during the interview Craig had to tell the officer the correct pump he was at on 9-11.
Maybe Craig IS IN ON IT!
 
:DMaybe the Citgo station rests on a sliding concrete missile silo cover. and maybe It was open in the "south" position during the hijacking alert. :jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

it could happen!!:)


I hope somebody is feeding the crickets.:(
 
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Please note that I have split off the Fisk/BBC discussion and sent it here.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady
 
So Paik is out as far as being any CIT star. To my mind so is Turcois given that he changes his description of the path of the plane twice during the interview, at the leading of Ranke. His first description has him pointing to the south and saying he saw it over the station which would be consistent with it being in that direction and he mistaking the distance.
 
Yes but it was pointed out to my attention that we can't rely on eyewitnesses even when they corroborate each other.

And you've brought it to our attention that the testimony of seven eyewitnesses outweighs that of 105, even when only three of those seven corroborate each other and even those three are among the 105 that you're cherry-picking other parts of their testimony to outweigh. I know that sounds disjointed and incomprehensible, but that's what happens when someone rational tries to summarise your position.

Dave
 

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