Christopher 7 --- C7 & C4

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by gumboot
We'd get it on steel when we'd been angle-grinding it. Very deep rich blue stain at the edge of the cut. Usually means the steel has been heated and cooled very fast, and is very sharp. It usually comes away very easily. We're talking a narrow strip maybe 5mm from the edge of the cut.

-Gumboot

I stand corrected. From your description, that doesn't sound anything like what has been posted in that picture.

Forgive me if it has been mentioned already but it seems to me that when steel is bent to the point of snapping that the steel would also heat up in much the same way that bending a coat hanger back and forth will cause it to snap and that the material next to the break is quite hot.

So the mere existance of heat at that point still would not be direct evidence of anything other than the fact that the steel snapped. A chemical analysis would be required to show the existance of explosive residue.

 

[Christopher7]

No, Chris, you made a positive claim.

You have misquoted me again.

could the fractures have fractured from the collapse? Yes or no.?

Not [mostly] straight like that.
Neither of us is qualified to say for sure but you cannot justifiably rule out that they were cut IMO.

You clamed that the splice plates could not have fractured.

For an English major, your reading comprehension skills really suck.

First, look at the photos I posted. None of them show a "mostly straight" break.

These column splices are severed mostly straight and the column is not bent.
[note wall curves the same as the beam due to fisheye lens]

These are also mostly straight and the columns are not bent.

In this photo, the columns are bent and the splice plates have been ripped apart in an irregular manner.

In this photo the column is bent and the splice plates have broken in a saw tooth pattern where there were holes all the way across the plate.
[possibly bolt holes]

The splice plates were strong enough to hold the columns together while the columns bent, to a point, then they gave way.

On the other hand, in the first two photos the splices were severed mostly straight but the beams are NOT bent.

 

[Gravy]

.

On the other hand, in the first two photos the splices were severed mostly straight but the beams are NOT bent.

Chris, in the second photo, one of the column ends above the spandrel is
completely missing
See the damage to the flange on the spandrel next to it? Think it got by something hard?

Yes, Chris, structural steel can fracture. Yes, structural steel breaks.

In the extremely strong earthquake that struck Kobe and other parts of southern Hyogo Prefecture on January 17, 1995, structural steel was found to have snapped like sticks of chalk. ...structural steel materials broke before they could dissipate energy through inelastic deformation, suggesting that a force smaller than the design force was able to destroy them.

Development of an Analysis of Structural Steel Fracture and Development of Technical Solutions.

Since you can tell which connections were severed by man and which by nature, please tell us how the breaks in the following photos occurred.

Photo 1

1________
2________
3________
4________

Photo 2

1________
2________
3________
4________

Photo 3

1________
2________
3________
4________
5________
6________
7________
8________

 

[LashL]

That sir, is a matter of opinion.

People outside this discussion couldn't care less about how we define building or freefall.

The essence of the building in freefall is that it looks like [is consistent with] a

professional building implosion.

The videos are the primary evidence.

If you say WTC 7 doesn't look like a building implosion then you are in denial IMO.

I am sorry to have to point it out to you, but your post above is completely uneducated or completely irrational, or both.

When you (repeatedly) make the statement that a particular building collapsed at "close to free fall speed", it most certainly does matter that you have tried to redefine the terms "building" and "free fall into something unrecognizable (even leaving aside the obvious misnomer in the "free fall speed" nomenclature).

You are simply trying to move the goalposts and doing a very, very poor job of it. That might work on the tinhatter forums that you frequent, particularly the Loose Change forum where facts do not matter and are not required; where legitimate research is anathema; and where evidence means something that somebody told somebody who told somebody else something that they saw on television once, and then somebody else posted it on the internet somewhere. But it doesn't work here.

 

[Christopher7]

.

Chris, in the second photo, one of the column ends above the spandrel is
completely missing

So what? The columns are not bent but the splices were severed mostly straight.

See the damage to the flange on the spandrel next to it? Think it got by something hard?

Yes

Yes, Chris, structural steel can fracture. Yes, structural steel breaks.

Yes.

Since you can tell which connections were severed by man and which by nature, please tell us how the breaks in the following photos occurred.

I said that the splices on the bent beams were ripped apart or broke where the [bolt?] holes went all the way across the splice.
I'm not going to debate every break. Suffice it to say that some appear to have broken and some appear to have been cut.

My main concern is these two columns that were not bent and the splices were severed mostly straight.

Same here

 

[Mobyseven]

Could you be a little bit more specific about that second picture? I feel like I'm trying to find Wally in a sea of striped red shirts...

 

[Christopher7]

Could you be a little bit more specific about that second picture? I feel like I'm trying to find Wally in a sea of striped red shirts...

The splices [the pieces welded to the sides of the vertical columns] all severed in the same place and mostly straight.
The columns are not bent.

 

[Christopher7]

cloudshipsrule:
Thank you for acknowledging that what Daryl heard and saw is evidence of a CD. It is very credible because it was on 9/11 shortly after WTC 7 collapsed.
Craig's statement "...and the whole time you're hearing thoom, thoom, thoom, thoom, I think I know an explosion when i hear one" is more definitive.
The videos and other evidence back these statements up IMO.
In any case, people should stop denying the evidence and then saying "you have no evidence"


Belz:
jaydeehess asked me to speculate on the evidence. [what Daryl heard and saw]
That's altogether different than speculating when there is no evidence.
The 'clap' of thunder' was many explosions going off at once IMO.
I don't chastise jaydeehess for speculating on the evidence because he's really good at it. I challenge his speculating when there is no evidence.

By NO accounts did this hole, starting at the roof, go all the way to the ground. Do you really think that nobody noticed a 47 story hole on 9/11?

The 20 + story hole is west of center and far above the area of the initiating event.
There was a great deal of damage to the west half of the south side.
This damage might cause the west end to collapse but it not cause the east central core columns to fail. The stress from this damage was primarily to the surrounding columns and then the entire building.
The NIST hypothesis describes the initiating event as a critical column collapsing to the east. Any stress from the damage to the west half of the south side would be pulling to the south west.


Dave:
I do not agree that there was no loud noise at the time of the initiating event. See post #1646 on the "10 story hole" thread.

 

[Gravy]

The splices [the pieces welded to the sides of the vertical columns] all severed in the same place and mostly straight.
The columns are not bent.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9571/copy2of3pi1.jpg

Um, Chris, you said the same thing about the splice breaks on columns that are bent. And look at my "Photo 2" above. Bent columns with your "straight" splice breaks.

Please stop this.

Doesn't your brain hurt when you put it through these mental gymnastics to justify your absurd ideas? You have truly woven a tangled web. I hope you extricate yourself some day.

 

[Christopher7]

Um, Chris, you said the same thing about the splice breaks on columns that are bent. And look at my "Photo 2" above. Bent columns with your "straight" splice breaks.

Wrong

Please read post #242 again.

Your reading comprehension skills haven't gotten any better in the last few days.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Dave:
I do not agree that there was no loud noise at the time of the initiating event. See post #1646 on the "10 story hole" thread.

I read it, and you said that the noise at the time of the initiating event wasn't heard. If you want to draw a distinction between a noise not being loud and not being heard I won't go into nit-picking, but I understand you to be saying that no explosion-like sound was heard until 4-6 seconds after the initiating event.

Dave

 

[Christopher7]

I read it, and you said that the noise at the time of the initiating event wasn't heard. If you want to draw a distinction between a noise not being loud and not being heard I won't go into nit-picking, but I understand you to be saying that no explosion-like sound was heard until 4-6 seconds after the initiating event.

Dave

No, i said the Daryl was too far away to hear the collapse of the columns and floors under the penthouse. [which would have made a lot of noise]
Therefore he did not hear the [perhaps] smaller, single charges that started the initiating event.
The first thing he heard was the massive explosion that took out the other 18 core columns and whatever else that had to be blown to bring WTC 7 down.

I don't expect you to believe as i do.
I'm only asking that you accept the possibility that what he heard and saw was a massive explosion and not a sudden clap of thunder in the middle of a building collapsing.

Some people keep saying that there is no evidence of a CD.

You can think up alternate explanations but you cannot justifiably say that what Daryl heard and saw could not have been a CD.

 

[jaydeehess]

In keeping with C7's request that Cd be discussed here and fire in the other thread I will answer the following post(from "10 storey hole") here.

So the building began coming apart 5 - 7 seconds before the west side roof and then the rest of the building began to fall and 4 - 6 seconds before the lone 'clap of thunder'.So what do you deduce this 'clap of thunder' was exactly?

Chris:

A lot of explosions going off at once or in very rapid sequence

.

jaydeehess:
It certainly was NOT a series of closely spaced explosions taking out the core since the core had already been coming apart

Chris:

By very close i mean 100ths of a second, sounding like a single explosion.

Not if you wish the observed sequence of collapse to match what you propose. If all of the core columns were blown so close in time as to make the sound of all of them blend into one 'clap of thunder' then the entire core would have collapsed simultaneously. Instead what we know occured is that the after the east penthouse disappeared, then the screen wall, then the west penthouse also sank indicating a horizontal progression of failure in the core and not a simultaneous failure. Your senario would have produced failure of the entire core columns all within 1/100ths of a second(close enough to simultaneous for such things) not something that stretches out over a couple of seconds.


Chris:

My guess is, the columns under the penthouse were taken out one at a time to clear an area so the east and west walls could fall inward.
Daryl didn't have to run from the dust cloud so he was probably back around the 600' safety perimeter. He didn't hear the single devices going off one at a time but he did hear the big bang of the rest of the core columns and anything else they needed to blow.

That would require that sufficient time be allowed between chrages to allow an area to 'clear'. You have all columns going within 1/100ths of a second.

So Darryl was 600 feet away. You are aware that the sight of anything he was observing took place 0.29 microseconds before he saw it, while the sounds he heard took place a full second before he hears them.

Chris:

Demolitions companies have a variety of demolition devices, some louder than others.
We are not experts on what they have, when they use different devices, or why.
We can only speculate, endlessly.

None of them are silent!

Chris:

You are looking for a reason to deny that what Daryl heard and saw could have been a CD.

Oh, I believe that I have said that it could have been a CD. You keep seeming to miss it when I do say things like that. I simply cannot imagine any CD that would fit what Darryl describes and I cannot understand why we are to take Darryl at his word about his expertise in identifying the sound of an explosion over that of breaking steel.

I repeat;
I believe that the evidence supporting the hypothesis that debris damage and/or fire caused WTC 7 to collapse is much more convincing than the vidence that the building was taken down by explosive demolitions.

 

[jaydeehess]

No, i said the Daryl was too far away to hear the collapse of the columns and floors under the penthouse. [which would have made a lot of noise]
Therefore he did not hear the [perhaps] smaller, single charges that started the initiating event.
The first thing he heard was the massive explosion that took out the other 18 core columns and whatever else that had to be blown to bring WTC 7 down.

Once again though your senario does not match the situation.

Columns 79,80,81 were at least as strong as the other 18. So they would hardly require smaller charges to take them out than to take out each of the other 18.
3 charges going off simultaneously would actually be a stronger percussive force than 18 going off in sequence.(it just would not last as long)

 

[Gravy]

The splices [the pieces welded to the sides of the vertical columns] all severed in the same place and mostly straight.
The columns are not bent.

But Chris, how do you know what the columns above those splices looked like?

Do explain.

Ah, never mind. It's painful watching you contort your mind from one ignorant, desperate explanation to another, to another, to another. You think the exterior columns were blasted. That's just nuts.

Get help.

 

[jaydeehess]

The only way for CD to be valid would be for it to mimic the effects that NIST showed for the senario of collapse.

That is column(s) 79/80/81 fail first resulting in a vertical failure that sees the east penthouse sink, followed by a horizontal, east to west, progressive failure of the other core columns resulting in a progressive, east to west sinking of the rooftop structures.

In 0.01 second an object would fall 2/100ths of an inch.
in 0.18 second an object would fall just over 6 inches
MAX!

18/100ths of a second is approx 10 frames of video.
How many frames of video does it take?
Would eighteen 0.01 second interval explosions really sound like one 'clap of thunder'?
Would it be louder than three 0.01 second interval explosions of equal power or would it just last longer?

A CD that has all 18 core columns being severed by explosives within 18/100ths of a second(such that the sound produced is indistinquishable from a single simultaneous explosion) would have seen the rooftop structures (west of the east penthouse)all starting to sink very close to within 18/100ths of a second from beginning to end. They did not. The screenwall very clearly started to sink well before the west penthouse's west end was moving downward, and had certainly gone more than 6 inches downward before the west penthouse began to sink as well.

 

[jaydeehess]

It is amazing how Christopher 7 can spend so much more time argueing against the fire cause rather than to defend his explosives cause of the collapse.

Not to mention the scant support he has received in showing evidence of explosives use by any like-minded folk here.

 

[Christopher7]

In keeping with C7's request that Cd be discussed here and fire in the other thread I will answer the following post(from "10 storey hole") here.

Thank you.

Not if you wish the observed sequence of collapse to match what you propose. If all of the core columns were blown so close in time as to make the sound of all of them blend into one 'clap of thunder' then the entire core would have collapsed simultaneously.

Wrong
Read post #252 again.

Instead what we know occured is that the after the east penthouse disappeared, then the screen wall, then the west penthouse also sank indicating a horizontal progression of failure in the core and not a simultaneous failure. Your senario would have produced failure of the entire core columns all within 1/100ths of a second(close enough to simultaneous for such things) not something that stretches out over a couple of seconds.

NiST Apx. L pg 33:
"The simultaneous failure of screenwall and west penthouse, ....."

So Darryl was 600 feet away. You are aware that the sight of anything he was observing took place 0.29 microseconds before he saw it, while the sounds he heard took place a full second before he hears them.

Good point
The very large explosion occurred about 2 seconds before the bottom floor caved out.

None of them are silent!

40 floors collapsing under the penthouse would have made a lot of noise.
Daryl did not hear any of it. He was too far away.
He would not hear smaller single explosions either. IMO

Oh, I believe that I have said that it could have been a CD. You keep seeming to miss it when I do say things like that.

I did miss that, my bad.
Thank you for the acknowledgement.
Daryl's statement qualifies as evidencd of a CD. [although not conclusive]

I simply cannot imagine any CD that would fit what Darryl describes

Actually, you have a very creative mind and you could come up with a scenario if you really wanted to.

and I cannot understand why we are to take Darryl at his word about his expertise in identifying the sound of an explosion over that of breaking steel.

Daryl needs no expertise to describe what he heard as a clap of thunder.
You don't believe that it could have been demolition charges.
I don't believe that it could have been breaking steel.

I repeat;
I believe that the evidence supporting the hypothesis that debris damage and/or fire caused WTC 7 to collapse is much more convincing than the evidence that the building was taken down by explosive demolitions.

We respectfully disagree on this point.

 

[Gravy]

Chris, suppose the steel holding up a hypothetical skyscraper failed. What would you expect to hear?

 

[Disbelief]

Christopher, I have a couple of questions about your pictures that you did not answer in the other thread.

Can a linear cutter charge cut completely through a support beam with no preliminary cuts?

What does a beam look like after a linear cutter charge is used?

Do you know when the pictures were taken to know if there would have been an opportunity to cut them?