Christmas for Atheists

[Nyarlathotep]

And who did they get it off?

Beats me. Prior to those religions (except for MIthraism which,IIRC, spun off of Zoroastrianism. I have no clue about the origins of Zoroastrianism, never studied it much) you are getting into pre-history which is much more the realm of archeology and anthropolgy, which, I am sorry to admit, I haven't studied nearly as much as I have studied history.

 

[Suezoled]

Then surely "under God" is what you make of it, and there's no reason to make a big fuss?

No, holidays are what one makes of it: Christian, Pagan, secular, spiritual, government, or not at all. Pledge of allegiance recognizes in its very words a god and a higher power, any higher power.

Actually, a lot of school districts around here have Martin Luther King Jr. day off, and Presidents' day as well, and some of them are closed for Parent-teacher conference week.

 

[Chanileslie]

And who did they get it off?

Well the Romans actually did have a celebration to a god that took place on December 25th (feasting, festival like, rather like Mardi Gras now, I guess). Mithraism also had a celebration (usually feasting and gift giving) in what is now December. And the Celts did celebrate the winter solstice which falls about December 21st.

In the US, Christmas was revived in the mid 1800's as a family oriented holiday, and it was at that time Christmas as we know it now came into play.

 

[Silicon]

I wonder why I've never heard an atheist complain that the government-observed Christmas holidays are a violation of the separation of church and state?

Maybe because we don't have government employees making children stand up, face the flag, put a hand over their heart and swear that they are taking december 25th off of school to reaffirm "the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future" and "constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war.''


... as Eisenhower said when "under God" was added to the pledge in 1954.

I know I would object to being made to affirm a belief in christmas in the way people are coerced to affirm a belief in GODANDCOUNTRY(tm).

 

[Chanileslie]

And who did they get it off?

I'm sorry, I misinterpreted your question. Actually, most cultures have celebrated some sort of mid-winter festival. I believe to alleviate the deprevations that come with winter and the boredom of being locked inside.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

No, holidays are what one makes of it: Christian, Pagan, secular, spiritual, government, or not at all. Pledge of allegiance recognizes in its very words a god and a higher power, any higher power.

Good point. If I have a day off on Christmas, I can use it to go to church, I can use it to spend with my family, I can use it to clean out my garage, anything I want. It can be religious or not.

Forcing my kids to start the day with a pedge that includes "One Nation, Under God" has inescapable and undeniable religious significance.

 

[clk]

Maybe because we don't have government employees making children stand up, face the flag, put a hand over their heart and swear that they are taking december 25th off of school to reaffirm "the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future" and "constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war.''


... as Eisenhower said when "under God" was added to the pledge in 1954.

I know I would object to being made to affirm a belief in christmas in the way people are coerced to affirm a belief in GODANDCOUNTRY(tm).

Your point might have been valid if children were actually required to say "under God". But they're not.

 

[Chanileslie]

Thats kind of odd to me to hear. If religion is nuts then why partake in the very things they hold as sacred? I mean wouldn't make more sense to avoid it so as to make a point? I know that not all Atheists will agree with you but I am speaking strictly from your perspective.

Just because a particular holiday is celebrated by a religion, it does not make it their holiday no matter how much propaganda they use to claim it to be so. We don't celebrate these days as a christian would; we have our own traditions and rituals and god and religion have nothing to do with them. Not only that, but mid-winter festivals have been celebrated since time immemorial.

 

[Fendetestas]

One word: presents.

Also, the 25th of December is Newton's Birthday.

 

[Suezoled]

Your point might have been valid if children were actually required to say "under God". But they're not.

When I went to school yes they did try to force us to say it, the whole of it, with a look of sincerity on our faces. Those of use who refused were scolded, given detentions, accused of being troublemakers. One teacher, I am sure, would have loved to have beaten us if he could have gotten away with it.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm sorry, I misinterpreted your question. Actually, most cultures have celebrated some sort of mid-winter festival. I believe to alleviate the deprevations that come with winter and the boredom of being locked inside.

The pagan celebration had a lot to do with the realization that the days were starting to get longer again..

There was always that apprehension as the days grew shorter leading up to the solstice, that maybe this time the days will continue getting shorter and the Sun wll never rise again..

This may be one reason why the post solstice celebrations seem to have stronger roots in the northern lattitudes...

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Your point might have been valid if children were actually required to say "under God". But they're not.

Are they required by law? no.

Are they required by virtue of pressure from an authority figure (their teacher)? yes.

Very few children are going to have the strength to be the weirdo who stays seated or walks out of the room while the pledge is being recited, regardless of their own viewpoints on religion. Our own youngest child, for example, only recently realized that she even had an option not to say it.

 

[Suezoled]

Are they required by law? no?

Are they required by virtue of pressure from an authority figure (their teacher)? yes.

Very few children are going to have the strength to be the weirdo who stays seated or walks out of the room while the pledge is being recited, regardless of their own viewpoints on religion.

I dunno Nyarl. Two of us in one class were the weirdo. We didn't talk, we weren't rude , we merely sat in our chair when everyone else stood up. That alone got me 6 detentions and yelled at by the dean of students, who was a freaky little man to start with.

edited to add: after being threatened with suspension, I did end up standing up when everyone else did to say the pledge. I merely stood up and turned my back. No one had said I had to face the dang flag, merely I had to stand up or risk being tossed out for a couple days.

 

[Chanileslie]

I wonder why I've never heard an atheist complain that the government-observed Christmas holidays are a violation of the separation of church and state? I would say that the violation is more evident than the "under God", because having a holiday for Christmas actually acknowledges a specific religion, while "under God" does not. Where are the lawsuits against the government? Where is Michael Newdow now? Maybe he doesn't want to lose his 1 week vacation.

Actually, the school systems now refer to it as Winter Break and Sprink Break with no mention of Easter* or Christmas. And if we were forced to pay homage to the xian god then I would be at the head of the line demanding that it be stopped immediately. But, unlike the pledge which many school children are forced to say as a part of their daily routine and which mandates the belief in a god (by proclaiming that we are "one nation under god"), Christmas and Easter may be celebrated however one likes with no regard to a particular religion or even mention of a god.

*Easter is the strangest holiday to be claimed as a christian one because it still retaines it's pagan name which was after the fertility goddess Oestra.

 

[Calee]

I celebrate XMas so that I don't piss off Santa Claus.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I dunno Nyarl. Two of us in one class were the weirdo. We didn't talk, we weren't rude , we merely sat in our chair when everyone else stood up. That alone got me 6 detentions and yelled at by the dean of students, who was a freaky little man to start with.

edited to add: after being threatened with suspension, I did end up standing up when everyone else did to say the pledge. I merely stood up and turned my back. No one had said I had to face the dang flag, merely I had to stand up or risk being tossed out for a couple days.

I didn't say none will, I said few will. Schizobunny does pretty much what you said you did, but she is a strong willed kid. Much to her parents chagrin

In the Newdow case, the child could opt out of the pledge, but they ahd to leave the room. I think that really unnecessarily singles the child out and seems like a form of unofficial pressure to me.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Your point might have been valid if children were actually required to say "under God". But they're not.

And Your point might have been valid if they never had been...

They're not, anymore, because of the people who have decided they do not want their religious choices dictated to them by any civil authority...

When those same ( or otherwise ) people, or a vocal majority decide they don't wan't Christmas forced upon them, then you will see changes..


I'm sure, if everyone got to go home with pay, after saying ' Under God ', in some kind of pledge, or there was a multibillion dollar economic thrust behind it, it would be just as popular as Christmas...

 

[Chanileslie]

But the government recognizes Christmas which is a Christian holiday.

You are wrong, Christmas is not a christian holiday no matter what christians would like to claim.

It doesn't matter what the holiday is used for. Why isn't there a movement to get rid of the holidays and instead have work all week?

Also, who gets a whole week off at christmas? Other than school children who get two weeks of what is called Winter Break. If I take a week or so off at christmas, I use my vacation time which I can use any time during the year.

I would think that atheists would be more offended by Christmas than "under God". You don't even have to say "under God", but in alot of cases you probably can't come and work on Christmas, because the place you work will be closed. If it's not closed, then there will be alot of retail places and government institutions that are closed, so you still have to observe it. Plus, it's a government endorsement of a specific religion.

Ah, but it isn't necessarily closed because it is a christian holiday because it is not. And it is a government endorsement of a day off although the government does not force private companies to give those days off to employees. Now if the government forced everyone to have that day off to go to church to worship some make believe being, then that would be a government endorsement that would be widely protested.

 

[BlackBetta]

We celebrate all the majors, although we often move them up or back a week or two if it's more convenient for everyone to get together. Even when I was an christian I always thought it dumb that one day is considered more holy while the next isn't.
Anyway now it's, No prayers, just lots of loud talking and laughing, which is much better IMO.

 

[Chanileslie]

Your point might have been valid if children were actually required to say "under God". But they're not.

They are also not prevented from saying under god, so what is the big deal if that phrase is removed from the official pledge?