Christmas for Atheists

[clk]

I wonder why I've never heard an atheist complain that the government-observed Christmas holidays are a violation of the separation of church and state? I would say that the violation is more evident than the "under God", because having a holiday for Christmas actually acknowledges a specific religion, while "under God" does not. Where are the lawsuits against the government? Where is Michael Newdow now? Maybe he doesn't want to lose his 1 week vacation.

 

[tdn]

Things like Columbus Day and MLK Day are never going to be all that big until they can get associated with family or sex.

I have a dream! Where a man is not judged by the color of his skin, but where a woman is judged by the softness of hers! And where we get freaky at last! Freaky at last! Freaky at last!

 

[tdn]

I wonder why I've never heard an atheist complain that the government-observed Christmas holidays are a violation of the separation of church and state?

I have. But those atheists tend to be joyless and cynical, and few people take them seriously.

I once had a roommate who loved working on 12/25, because he could have the entire office to himself.

 

[El Greco]

I wonder why I've never heard an atheist complain that the government-observed Christmas holidays are a violation of the separation of church and state?

Because we live in countries where the majority rules, and the majority are Christians. Besides, if we atheists were the majority, we would want our solsticial holidays

 

[Martin]

Yeah, and wasn't Mithra born of a virgin in a manger after the virgin was visited by an angel?

I thought Mithras was born of a rock. OK, technically rocks are virgins, but I think that's pushing the definition somewhat.


Seriously, there's a huge list of 'similarities', many of which simply don't exist. That's not to say that there are none, of course.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I have. But those atheists tend to be joyless and cynical, and few people take them seriously.

I once had a roommate who loved working on 12/25, because he could have the entire office to himself.

Besides (in Nevada at least) getting ANY holidays off is solely at the discretion of the employers. Most employers choose to give tradiotional Christian holodays off because that's what the majority of their employees want, even if they worked those days most of their suppliers/clients/whatever wouldn't be, and so on, making the Christian holidays the default set of holidays. If my employer chose to give me the Jewish High Holy Days off instead, or no holidays at all, they could (though as I said, it wouldn't be convenient for them) and the government couldn't say otherwise. That's the biggest difference between that and something like the pledge.

Personally if I ran a business, I wouldn't give set holidays off, I'd give 8-10 floating holidays that employees could take whenever. THough I suspect that enough of them would take them at Christmas I'd have to shut down at that time anyway.

 

[clk]

I have. But those atheists tend to be joyless and cynical, and few people take them seriously.

I once had a roommate who loved working on 12/25, because he could have the entire office to himself.

But see, here's the point I'm trying to make:
IMO, the government observing the Christmas holidays is a much clearer violation of the separation of church and state than is "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. Acknowledging the holidays means acknowledging Christianity. But "under God"...that could be any religion. So if these atheist groups go after "under God", and not go after the holidays, then they seem hypocritical and people will say that "hey, they only attack things that aren't convenient to them. They like the Christmas holidays because they get a free week off from work." Is that true? I don't know if it is. That's why I'm sick of the religous nuts and the atheism nuts. They both seem crazy and hypocritical to me.

 

[El Greco]

That's why I'm sick of the religous nuts and the atheism nuts. They both seem crazy and hypocritical to me.

These are SOCIAL holidays. Even for Christians. This is their primary function. They could worship God even without a week off, that's irrelevant.

 

[MLynn]

Besides (in Nevada at least) getting ANY holidays off is solely at the discretion of the employers. Most employers choose to give tradiotional Christian holodays off because that's what the majority of their employees want, even if they worked those days most of their suppliers/clients/whatever wouldn't be, and so on, making the Christian holidays the default set of holidays. If my employer chose to give me the Jewish High Holy Days off instead, or no holidays at all, they could (though as I said, it wouldn't be convenient for them) and the government couldn't say otherwise. That's the biggest difference between that and something like the pledge.

Personally if I ran a business, I wouldn't give set holidays off, I'd give 8-10 floating holidays that employees could take whenever. THough I suspect that enough of them would take them at Christmas I'd have to shut down at that time anyway.

Some companies give "bank" time which includes vacation, personal, sick time off, in combination with set holidays.
Our holidays off are told to us by our Corporate office in another state so we don't have much flexibility.
I've heard stories of Xtians working on Channukah and Jews working on Christmas.

 

[clk]

These are SOCIAL holidays. Even for Christians. This is their primary function. They could worship God even without a week off, that's irrelevant.

But the government recognizes Christmas which is a Christian holiday. It doesn't matter what the holiday is used for. Why isn't there a movement to get rid of the holidays and instead have work all week? I would think that atheists would be more offended by Christmas than "under God". You don't even have to say "under God", but in alot of cases you probably can't come and work on Christmas, because the place you work will be closed. If it's not closed, then there will be alot of retail places and government institutions that are closed, so you still have to observe it. Plus, it's a government endorsement of a specific religion.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

But the government recognizes Christmas which is a Christian holiday. It doesn't matter what the holiday is used for. Why isn't there a movement to get rid of the holidays and instead have work all week? I would think that atheists would be more offended by Christmas than "under God". You don't even have to say "under God", but in alot of cases you probably can't come and work on Christmas, because the place you work will be closed. If it's not closed, then there will be alot of retail places and government institutions that are closed, so you still have to observe it. Plus, it's a government endorsement of a specific religion.

Those places are closed because of company policy, not because the government makes them close. They could choose to saty open if they so chose but for any of a variety of reasons they do not. Thus there is no coerciveness by the government involved, that is the difference between that and the pledge. Having the government force them to stay open WOULD be coercive.

 

[Suezoled]

But see, here's the point I'm trying to make:
IMO, the government observing the Christmas holidays is a much clearer violation of the separation of church and state than is "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. Acknowledging the holidays means acknowledging Christianity. But "under God"...that could be any religion. So if these atheist groups go after "under God", and not go after the holidays, then they seem hypocritical and people will say that "hey, they only attack things that aren't convenient to them. They like the Christmas holidays because they get a free week off from work." Is that true? I don't know if it is. That's why I'm sick of the religous nuts and the atheism nuts. They both seem crazy and hypocritical to me.

No, it does not mean necessarily mean acknowledging Christianity. The holidays really are what you make of it. Some people DO connect with religion and their version of a god. Some folks make it a secular celebration. Some people don't acknowledge it at all. Christianity is well known for adopting other countrys' own traditions; many holidays are not uniquely christian. No one cares.

 

[Suezoled]

But the government recognizes Christmas which is a Christian holiday. It doesn't matter what the holiday is used for. Why isn't there a movement to get rid of the holidays and instead have work all week? I would think that atheists would be more offended by Christmas than "under God". You don't even have to say "under God", but in alot of cases you probably can't come and work on Christmas, because the place you work will be closed. If it's not closed, then there will be alot of retail places and government institutions that are closed, so you still have to observe it. Plus, it's a government endorsement of a specific religion.

The governement does not officially endorse Christianity; they work with the popular sentiment. If the majority of citizens were Shintoist, they would probably grant off public holidays such as Obun.

 

[Silicon]

My friends who are (city) government employees don't get Christmas holiday off.

They get floating holidays for all the religious ones, and they can take them any time they want.

 

[clk]

No, it does not mean necessarily mean acknowledging Christianity. The holidays really are what you make of it.

Then surely "under God" is what you make of it, and there's no reason to make a big fuss?

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Those places are closed because of company policy, not because the government makes them close. They could choose to saty open if they so chose but for any of a variety of reasons they do not. Thus there is no coerciveness by the government involved, that is the difference between that and the pledge. Having the government force them to stay open WOULD be coercive.

Government offices are closed, however. Therefore, if you're a government worker and an atheist, then aren't you forced not to go to work (in most cases)?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Government offices are closed, however. Therefore, if you're a government worker and an atheist, then aren't you forced not to go to work (in most cases)?

In this sense, the government is acting as an employer and has the same rights as any other employer and faces the same difficulties as any other employer. Essential government services (police, fire, the military) are still staffed (and if I had my way, that would be the bulk of the government, but that's a different point for a different thread). AS for the rest, the government still faces the problem of low demand for those services ( I doubt that a whole lot of people want to renew their business licenses on Christmas day, for example) and a low number of employees who are willing to work on those days, making it not worth the expense to open on those days. In this sense, the government is no different than a private employer

 

[phildonnia]

I think food is required for a holiday to become popular. Any atheists here eat a corned-beef sandwich and raise a pint to the patron saint of Ireland? I thought so.

Next month I'll be celebrating the resurrection of christ with some ham (is that like, jew-baiting or what?!) and the month after that I'll be enjoying a margarita, thanks to the victory of mexican peasants over the french imperialists.

Ash wednesday is not particularly popular you will notice.

---

As for Christmas:

In the middle of the winter, go outside and have a look around. It's dark, its cold, its depressing. In olden times, there would also be a no streetlamps and a few months of snow to look forward to.

The christmas lights, no matter how cheesy, really take the edge off that. I don't doubt that it was once a matter of survival or sanity that compelled people to sing songs, give presents, light candles and generally have a good-ol' time.

 

[geni]

Some parts date to the Romans, some to the Celts, others to Mithraism.

And who did they get it off?

 

[MLynn]

The christmas lights, no matter how cheesy, really take the edge off that. I don't doubt that it was once a matter of survival or sanity that compelled people to sing songs, give presents, light candles and generally have a good-ol' time.

Even if I wasn't a Xtian, I'd love driving around town looking at all the lights, my current favorite is the blue "icicle" lights!

 

[Chanileslie]

My family and I do. For one they are as much a cultural as a religious observance, and though my family and I are atheists, we still consider ourselves as part of our culture.

Secondly, holidays are exactly what you make of them. If you choose to make them religious, they are. If you choose to make them just another day, they are. If you choose to make them a time to make a point of expressing appreciation for your family, they can be that too. My family and I choose the last option.

What he said. Of course as he is an important member of my family, I guess that could go without saying.