Christians: simple question about the bible

saizai said:
One thing that genuinely puzzles me about how people frame their belief of the bible.

It seems that you can either accept the bible as infallible literal truth in its entirety, or a sort of morality play story that requires interpretation to apply.

If the former, how do you answer the various contradicitions within it? Seems difficult to claim it is *all* literal truth.

If the latter, how do you explain the various pointless lists of begattings of people who never are mentioned again? Seems out of place for an Aesopian book.

If on the gripping hand, you choose to claim that some parts are literal truth whereas other parts are metaphorical, on what basis do you choose? How, without recourse to some non-biblical source, do you have any justification for this choice?
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Hi saizai, there are lots of good examples in scripture of morality vs immorality. The problem is as I understand it best that even people who consider themselves good people are still sinners in need of salvation. Christ provides this salvation and He is referenced all throughout the scriptures. From the OT to the New it's all about Him and how we can be reconciled to have a relationship with our Holy God.

Here's another interesting article Hank wrote at CRI that speaks about the unity of the Bible. Perhaps you might find it helpful...http://www.equip.org/free/JAO100.htm
 
KK - You haven't really answered my question.

Let's start with a simple foundational step: do you believe that slavery, rape, incest, torture, mass murder, unnecessary murder, etc are moral? Do you believe that the death penalty is appropriate punishment for disobedience, infidelity, proselytization, etc?

If yes to all of the above then I have no real dispute with you.

If no, please explain how you can both judge these to be moral, and claim that the bible is your source of an objective moral code, when the bible itself says that all these things are not just OK but even required of you.
 
You're right, I was focusing on the 'murder and rape' part of your post and forgot this one.
Slavery in particular is thrown out when looking at all the verses on love and mercy (it's kind of hard to argue that you love someone when you're making them labor for you all day). So far as I know there is no Bible verse where Jesus advocates slavery.
 
Skiltch said:
So far as I know there is no Bible verse where Jesus advocates slavery.
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No, you can't have it both ways with Jesus saying it or not. Why, because I am so tired of bible pounding people saying "IT'S IN THE BIBLE" when it comes to BS they want, like being against homosexuals, since then it doesn’t matter where it is in the bible.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
It's the sidestepping god thing christians love to do. This god of yours made everything, but is not responsible for all the bad in it. I heard it all the time from my mother. Seems that this so-called god is not responsible for all the death cause by hurricane, tidal waves, earthquakes etc. My mother will pray for people after they are sick, which is nice, but she never says that god let it happen in the first place.

Do you know the movie "The End" with Burt Reynolds? The character he plays finds out that he has leukemia and will soon die. At the end of the movie he tries to drown himself by swimming far out into the sea, but at the last second, when he is under water, he changes his mind, after he imagines hearing the voices of his love ones at his funeral. So, now for one of the funnier parts of the movie. He is far from the shore, he is weak from swimming and also because of the cancer, so he pleads with god to help him make it back.

I will paraphrase.

God if you help me get to shore, "I will give you 90% of my income, god that’s 90% right off the top". As he gets closer, "I will give you 75% lord, that’s 75%". And closer, "50% lord that's 50% lord". Now almost to shore "25% lord, I know I said 50%", and when he gets on shore, "Nothing lord, because you were the one who let me get sick in the first place".

There is more to the exchange, but I haven't seen the movie in over 20 years. Good movie, rent or buy it.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
What I meant was that nothing Jesus Said leads me to believe that slavery is exempted from the love and mercy He preached, so it is consistent that Christians think that slavery is bad.
 
When most Christians use the term "literal" they are misusing it and it isn't what they mean.

J. Budziszewski:

"As to the fourth question: I wish we Evangelicals would stop using the word "literal" because it's not what we mean. To interpret the Bible literally would be to believe that it could never even use a figure of speech, so that when the Bible calls Jesus the "Lamb of God" we should think He has hooves, horns and a wooly coat. Rather than saying that we interpret the Bible "literally," we should say that our aim in interpretation is to find out the meaning rather than to escape from it. We believe that although some passages are hard to understand, the basic message of the Bible is plain and public rather than esoteric and convoluted. To see why we think so, take a look at Isaiah 45:19, Isaiah 48:16 and John 18:20."

http://www.boundless.org/2000/departments/your_turn/a0000258.html

Aaron
 
Everything in the bible is true…. until it’s proved not to be true, then it’s just not to be taken literally.

Example: For thousands of years believers believed that the earth was created in 6 days with man/woman being created on day 6. People took that belief literally for thousands of years. Of course, with the study of science, geology, archeology, etc., well, we know that 6 days after the earth came into existence humans were no where to be seen. So now they make the claim that it is not to be taken as a literal 6 consecutive days, or that god has no concept of time measured in days or weeks or years. But as it was taught to me in Sunday school, the bible was inspired by god and written by man and interpereated into a language that man can understand. And to me, 6 days means 6 days.

It’s like the phrase, “One lie leads to another lie.” The first lie is “The earth was created in 6 days.” So when that’s proved to be a lie, they cover it with another lie, “Not to be taken literally.”
 
bobcarp - D00d, lots of people still think that. "Young earth" creationists.

But here I'm primarily talking about morals rather than general biblical infallibility / literalism.
 
saizai said:
KK - You haven't really answered my question.

Let's start with a simple foundational step: do you believe that slavery, rape, incest, torture, mass murder, unnecessary murder, etc are moral? Do you believe that the death penalty is appropriate punishment for disobedience, infidelity, proselytization, etc?

If no, please explain how you can both judge these to be moral, and claim that the bible is your source of an objective moral code, when the bible itself says that all these things are not just OK but even required of you.
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No and No. When Jesus came He did in fact change things.

It's true many of God's judgements did come down hard on people in the OT. I certainly would not have wanted to be Nathan or some of his other prophets that were told they had to wipe people out to get rid of the sins they were doing, would you?

Remember Isreal was so small that if God did not wipe out some of the evil doers, He could not help them get seperated from them. He ultimately is in control of all good and bad. God has to judge sin. And God never said those things were good to do either!
 
KK - OK. So would you say that anything in the new testament is fair game, and old testament is no longer in force?

If so, how would you address the various parts of the NT that condone and/or command the same behavior as I was talking about? E.g. slavery is still mentioned as a good thing (with restrictions like "don't kill the poor sod").

So you haven't answered my question still.
 
saizai said:
KK - OK. So would you say that anything in the new testament is fair game, and old testament is no longer in force?

If so, how would you address the various parts of the NT that condone and/or command the same behavior as I was talking about? E.g. slavery is still mentioned as a good thing (with restrictions like "don't kill the poor sod").

So you haven't answered my question still.
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Yes, the New Covenanat replaced the old.

And as to my recall the word if a man be a servant to another is used, not the term slavery. People are still very much servants to others, it's called having a job. And people are usually having to work for a boss who does in fact have power over them and their paycheck.

At least that's what comes to my mind as to how it relates to us in our society today. The lessons in the Bible reach far beyond the times they were written. They have an precept to help us whatever our walk of life is today.

And I don't even want to bring up some of what goes on in other parts of the world where some evil people not only use women & children for hard labor or prostituion. The people that do harm to people this way should be behind bars in my opinion. It's not okay and there are lots of organizations trying to help them. Sometimes people just need a way to escape such evil ones.

We all are taught to respect authority as far as in our governments and work places. This does not mean to say we always agree with someones perspective, but we do have to respect people in charge. This can be a challenge and lets just face it the Hitlers of the world have done much harm. Why do evil people even get posistions of power? Sometimes my only comfort is knowing that in some of the injustices that happens in this world, someday God will make it right.
 
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Audience: Please dig up and cite chapter and verse for all the questionable NT ethics. Thanks!

KK: We're not talking about the rest of the world or anything like that. We are only talking about whether the bible is consistently the source of your morality. If you disagree with anything in the NT, i.e. you don't think it's moral to do what it says is OK, then there's a problem.
 
saizai said:
Audience: Please dig up and cite chapter and verse for all the questionable NT ethics. Thanks!

KK: We're not talking about the rest of the world or anything like that. We are only talking about whether the bible is consistently the source of your morality. If you disagree with anything in the NT, i.e. you don't think it's moral to do what it says is OK, then there's a problem.
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Well I don't see a problem in refering to the Bible at all. Seems to be so many have tried to find the bad in it, rather than the good.

Acknowleging the Ten Commandments for instance. It's stil a good moral thing to know we should not kill, covet, steal, take Gods name in vain, respect mom and dad, tell the truth, and be content with what we have, don't you agree with these morals? I do and they go back to the beginning.
 
saizai said:
Audience: Please dig up and cite chapter and verse for all the questionable NT ethics. Thanks!

KK: We're not talking about the rest of the world or anything like that. We are only talking about whether the bible is consistently the source of your morality. If you disagree with anything in the NT, i.e. you don't think it's moral to do what it says is OK, then there's a problem.
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skepticsannotatedbible

Look them up yourself!
 
kurious_kathy said:
Well I don't see a problem in refering to the Bible at all. Seems to be so many have tried to find the bad in it, rather than the good.

Acknowleging the Ten Commandments for instance. It's stil a good moral thing to know we should not kill, covet, steal, take Gods name in vain, respect mom and dad, tell the truth, and be content with what we have, don't you agree with these morals? I do and they go back to the beginning.
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Which particular set of commandments are you referring to? There's more than one set you know!
 
These were the only set that people got to read. The first set got smashed.

Exodus 34:14-26:

1) Thou shalt worship no other God.
2) Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3) The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4) Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
5) Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks.
6) Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the Lord God.
7) Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
8) Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left until the morning.
9) The first of the firstfruits of thy land shalt thou bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
10) Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
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Thanks to Gord in Toronto.
 
wollery said:
Which particular set of commandments are you referring to? There's more than one set you know!
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Yes I have heard that. In fact wasn't the first set thrown down by Moses while coming down off Mount Sanai?

I know there are differences in some of the references, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, don't they all really say the same thing? God wanted His people to come out and be seperate from the rest of the world.
 
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kurious_kathy said:
Well I don't see a problem in refering to the Bible at all. Seems to be so many have tried to find the bad in it, rather than the good.

Acknowleging the Ten Commandments for instance. It's stil a good moral thing to know we should not kill, covet, steal, take Gods name in vain, respect mom and dad, tell the truth, and be content with what we have, don't you agree with these morals? I do and they go back to the beginning.
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That's fine. But I'm asking you whether you consider all the rest of the bible (or NT at least, if you say the OT doesn't apply to you) to be morally perfect.

You don't get to have it both ways. Either it's all good, or it's not perfect. If it's not perfect then you can hardly say that we should use it as an objective moral code, because obviously you're overriding it with some sort of external morality.
 
To 'audience': tiptoe quietly and leave saizai and kathy_critter alone. With luck, they won't notice, will continue to babble inanely, and won't pollute other threads.
 
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