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Choosing a Martial Art

The pseudo skeptic in you and Kevin is strong.
You have not seen a single demonstration of Hisardut or maybe even not heard of it until my posts yet you seem to know that it doesn't work.
saying that enhancing instinctive responses doesn't work, like you said is so much BS. Raising one's arm up countering a punch or slap doesn't work? really? So what should one do instead? I'd love to hear that.
I don't think you were being serious when you said that instincts like closing ones eyes when being hit is enhanced in Hisardut. That's not what happens. Read my post #126.

I've read post #126, and it confirms my "diagnosis".


I remember that Dr. Hanover once volunteered me to show a move he wanted to teach against an attacker coming to slap me. He was the attacker and even before he taught what to do he said "think fast, what would you do now" and he gave me a nice big slap on the head. It shook me as I stood there like a tree. He asked again, "what would you do now" and slapped again. Only on the third time did I raise my hand in defense which he congratulated me and said that that is exactly the instinct that we have and the most effective thing to do followed by other moves that he then taught in order to not only defend yourself but also neutralize your opponent.

Note the bold bits: your instinctive response was to stand there like a tree, not to defend yourself. Only on the 3rd try did you try to defend yourself, and I'm pretty sure you'd still have gotten badly beaten had the blow been full speed and force. This is consistent with what any serious MA instructors observe and have to do with beginners: start with getting rid of instinctive responses, that are both inappropriate and ineffective.

I say ineffective, because, as others have said, blocking a punch/slap works at best once, on the condition that you block at the right time, speed, and place, and are ready to counter the next blows and to attack yourself. It isn't instinctive, but on the contrary demands a long and constant training in order to overcome your natural tendencies and to learn appropriate responses.

Any MA, or style withing a MA*, I've seen or heard of that promises you will learn that kind of things easily and simply has proved utter woo whenever it has been put to the test against more realistic fighting techniques.

* I regularly meet people who pretend having found a better, easier, simpler technique/way to teach kendo and to bring beginners to championship level. Said practitionners get systematically beaten to a pulp in real practice, and the beginners get totally discouraged at their first competition. And don't get me started about the pathetic "Ninja" who come asking to be attacked with a bokken because they've just been taught the great secret Krav-naga enhanced ninja technique that allows them to block a blade between their bare hands ...
 
Flo said:
Any MA, or style withing a MA*, I've seen or heard of that promises you will learn that kind of things easily and simply has proved utter woo whenever it has been put to the test against more realistic fighting techniques.

* I regularly meet people who pretend having found a better, easier, simpler technique/way to teach kendo and to bring beginners to championship level. Said practitionners get systematically beaten to a pulp in real practice, and the beginners get totally discouraged at their first competition. And don't get me started about the pathetic "Ninja" who come asking to be attacked with a bokken because they've just been taught the great secret Krav-naga enhanced ninja technique that allows them to block a blade between their bare hands ...

I don't understand why you said this. I haven't seen a formal place where it says that Hisardut is easy or better than other techniques. It does say that it is simplistic so that you don't learn katas and other stuff that have nothing to do with the fighting itself (a side from advocating patriotism like I said earlier).

Your words here are out of context to the OP's request which in part I quote below:

A practical art that could help me in self-defence situation.

I take this self-defence request as mostly not fighting against other martial artists but more taking care of yourself when met with everyday threatening situations.
Everyone, no matter his training, can face a better guy who'll beat him on the street. I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP meant. Instead, if a random guy on the street hackles him and his wife and starts getting agressive, the OP would know how to neutralize him.

I randomly found this clip of Hisardut basics from the History channel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYTQG1YsWxQ

Personally I think that the best thing to get out of martial arts training, boxing etc (regarding self defense), is the ability to take a punch without getting into shock which is what would probably happen to the average person on the street. Training in full contact makes you better immune to kicks and punches. In order to overpower the average person, it would be sufficient that you have better stamina than he does and you know how to take punches and kicks. Once you start hitting back and he doesn't have those abilities, he'll not be standing for long.
 
Personally I think that the best thing to get out of martial arts training, boxing etc (regarding self defense), is the ability to take a punch without getting into shock which is what would probably happen to the average person on the street. Training in full contact makes you better immune to kicks and punches. In order to overpower the average person, it would be sufficient that you have better stamina than he does and you know how to take punches and kicks. Once you start hitting back and he doesn't have those abilities, he'll not be standing for long.

I agree with most of this, but have yet to be convinced by any art claiming some sort of legitimacy by riding the coat-tails of elite military units.

If the Sayaret Matkal ever have to use this 'training' then their armed combat and small-unit tactics are seriously lacking.

Ask most of the dudes that are actually IN these units what they think of thse unarmed combat systems, and I think you'll find that nearly all of them would rather spend their time training MOUT/weapons/or the shooting house.

If you need an 'elite RBSD Defendo SCARS' course to teach you how to kick the ass of a famished 120 lb. insurgent, you're not a very damned good Ranger.

And besides, if military units find themselves within H2H range of an enemy, than hundreds of years of weapons and tactics have failed. Sudden blitz attacks can and do happen in a MOUT environment, but this is the point in the sequence of events where the troop watching your back shoots the ****er in the face.

The problem I have with these kinds of arts is that they intimate they will give you some sort of elite military fighting prowess without actually requiring you to go through what makes them so damned tough in the first place - and it ain't playin' krotty in a RedMan suit.
 
Back to the question...

I notice a few claims being made that don't match my own experiences.

I started out with jiu-jitsu and it covered: punches, kicks, lots of throws, grappling, weapons training (mainly knives) and system training (everyone tries to attack a single defender). The latter was really difficult, mainly for the attackers, because it is really hard to not get in each other's way.

I settled on Wing Chun and, assuming you find a good school, can recommend it for the following reasons:

1. Zero woo.
2. Practical aerobic training during warm-ups and warm downs (mainly rapid repetition of basic techniques).
3. No injuries during training.
4. Full contact training in full body armour.
5. Devastating techniques.
6. No flying around in the air or gymnastic contortions required.
7. Very practical weapons training using household objects - chairs, stools, garden tools, tennis rackets etc.
8. I particularly liked training with the wooden dummy, although in later years tended to break them too often (I tend to get over excited sometimes)...
 
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I'm not sold on The Chun either.

It's mostly #3 on your list that gives me pause. I've gotten injured doing point sparring in TKD back in the day. I don't see any art claiming #5 co-existing with #3.
 
If you need an 'elite RBSD Defendo SCARS' course to teach you how to kick the ass of a famished 120 lb. insurgent, you're not a very damned good Ranger.

Military H2H is pretty much VERY basic Judo/kickboxing/BJJ (Like 13-15 moves total... Well in the Army anyway.) From my time at Ft. Campbell, I watched 5th group a lot in the gym after my injury & on my way out, and they had a guy (he was SF too) who was a black belt in Judo and BJJ. Another guy was a former Golden Gloves boxer. They would train on the mats and in the ring 3 times a week. Also I have two relatives who were SEALS and several friends who are now Green Berets and none of them have told me anything different.

Having said that, what Wudang said
A training partner for many years was ex UK special forces and he said all they were ever taught was various ways to break a sentry's neck etc for covert entry.

Falls in line with what they told me too. Basically, if you have to go H2H several things have gone very, very, wrong. They train for it, and they train hard, but if they really have to use it (outside of a bar) somebody's going to be buying a lot of beer.
 
A training partner for many years was ex UK special forces and he said all they were ever taught was various ways to break a sentry's neck etc for covert entry.

Which is basically the only time a troop would willingly put himself that close to a target. And even then we're talking about snake-eaters who would have an occupational need for this technique.

When I was stationed on USS LastShip, we found a .pdf file of a US Army field manual with sentry neutralization stuff in it. A lot of graphic-pen comic-book style drawings. We used to print them out and then 'edit' them, adding text balloons and gore as necessary.

My favorite one was where you grab a sentry's helmet from behind and just yank the bastard to the ground in a snappy fashion.
 
Oh yes, a lot of them do it as a hobby. In fact the UK Marines have their own judo school - the commandokwai. And my friend and many of his mates trained in various forms of "jap slapping" as they called it but it was never part of the curriculum. Despite the best efforts of the people in charge of buying gear it seems the SAS can still afford to buy the odd gun etc, or could in my pals day.

If anybody wants a military reference I'd find out what the Military Police train in not special forces.


Eta: a quick google tells me people seem to be teaching "SAS jap slapping" as a martial arts system. Sheesh!
 
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If anybody wants a military reference I'd find out what the Military Police train in not special forces.

Where the USN is concerned (MA's), from what I've gathered through my meager force protection training and talking with many of them, it's pretty much the same things you'd learn working on the police force.
 
I remember some blusterer years back on here claiming to be a martial arts expert based on the "too deadly to be used " krav maga techniques he'd learned as an MP in one of the Scandinavian countries. Riiiiiiiiiiight! He won't come quietly then snap his spine like a twig. Yet one more example of how made-up **** should not be too extemporaneous.
 
I'm not sold on The Chun either.

It's mostly #3 on your list that gives me pause. I've gotten injured doing point sparring in TKD back in the day. I don't see any art claiming #5 co-existing with #3.

I don't think that you're always to to get #3 guaranteed in Wing Chun. The few sifus I've met didn't guarantee it, except for the lower levels of classes. Didn't hear much about "full body armor" either, though sometimes there was headgear and chest pads. Also, one sifu I know is getting ready to (or currently) doing some teaching of some hand-to-hand at a military base in the same state (don't know which, I'll ask him when I move back in-state), and the class he's teaching isn't going to be for novices. Another sifu I met was a monk for nearly ten years and knew or worked with a lot of guys who were doing the Chinese film stunt fighter thing for a while. A buddy of mine is training up with the first sifu mentioned to eventually start teaching classes himself (basically doing between 5-10 hours of training a day). A couple of these guys are also somewhat into the JKD philosophy, though, so maybe that colors their application (they also teach more than just WC).

That said, every now and then I detect a bit of heavy claims or questionable "this can allow you to..." statements when talking to my buddy (but never with the other two so far). I'm not trying to sell you on Wing Chun, but I do think that it's a very impressive style. I'm going to start learning the basics to get my ass back in shape when I move back, and I chose it specifically because it's something I can learn without having to be concerned that my 'after-market modifications' (lots of titanium parts) were going to stop me from being able to do stuff-- I noticed a lot of practical stuff without excessive movements that were part of stuff I'd learned before.

But again, I'm not trying to sell you on Wing Chun. I'm taking it myself because it's going to get me back in shape, not so I can be a tough guy. I'm not a tough guy not because I can't fight, but because I don't like to get hit (this made me a bad boxer back in my teens... not because I can't take a hit but because I'm head-shy). I don't want to be a tough guy. I already know how to break a nose or give a shot to the throat if I had to, and I don't ever want to have to. I want to be in shape and have some fun learning something that's interesting. I just don't have the mindset of "in a fight I'm gonna... and then I'll..." that I used to see in some classmates or even some instructors in the past. I'm just passing along why I was interested enough to consider taking it and why I will be once I get closer to these guys' zip code.
 
Long Fist is an interesting and impressive style.

Watching somebody slap box a Wing Chun dummy is impressive.

Juggling bowling pins while riding a unicycle is also pretty impressive.

What do these three have in common?
 
Where the USN is concerned (MA's), from what I've gathered through my meager force protection training and talking with many of them, it's pretty much the same things you'd learn working on the police force.

Not for the ones attached to Marine units.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

Military H2H is pretty much VERY basic Judo/kickboxing/BJJ (Like 13-15 moves total... Well in the Army anyway.)

I have copies of both the U.S. Army and Marine H2H manuals and there are a lot more than 13-15 moves. Actually, they are both quite extensive.
 
Not for the ones attached to Marine units.

You typically don't find MA's assigned to Marine units. That's not to say it doesn't happen (HM's have crossover for FMF purposes) but even then - in the performance of their duties they're not using MCMAP, they're using the use of force continuum, which includes LE control techniques.

If presence, verbal warning, soft control, and pepper spray don't work, they won't waste time throwing punches and kicks - they'll beat your ass with an ASP.
 
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