Choosing a Martial Art

[Kevin_Lowe]

I have no training in MA but my best friend has a black belt in Hisardut (Also Israeli).
Hisardut:



You don't want to meet this guy and his Hisardut buddies in a dark alley.[/LEFT]

Looks like the usual woo-MA to me, trying to cash in on the popularity of Krav Maga.

Check out their learn-to-be-an-instructor hotline. It's on the page labelled "Instructors/Qualifications" which, if you were naive, you might think would have the backgrounds and qualifications of the people teaching this Hisardut stuff.

Their videos, those that work at all, don't look to be much chop either.

They even have the obligatory waffle about how sport training doesn't work On Teh Streetz, along with the obligatory total lack of objective evidence that their system works On Teh Streetz or anywhere else.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You don't want to meet this guy and his Hisardut buddies in a dark alley.[/left]

Why not? The SCARS guys had even bolder claims and proved to be a bunch of morons.

 

[332nd]

why not? The scars guys had even bolder claims and proved to be a bunch of morons.

lol! Scars...

 

[Thunder]

I suggest the martial art that has the most "heeeeeee yaaaa!!!!!!!"s in it...is the right one for you.

 

[Meed]

Why not? The SCARS guys had even bolder claims and proved to be a bunch of morons.

It's not a particularly bold claim. I wouldn't want to run into any group of guys who had hostile intentions in a dark alley. Maybe they teach mugging strategies.

 

[yairhol]

Looks like the usual woo-MA to me, trying to cash in on the popularity of Krav Maga.

Check out their learn-to-be-an-instructor hotline. It's on the page labelled "Instructors/Qualifications" which, if you were naive, you might think would have the backgrounds and qualifications of the people teaching this Hisardut stuff.

Their videos, those that work at all, don't look to be much chop either.

They even have the obligatory waffle about how sport training doesn't work On Teh Streetz, along with the obligatory total lack of objective evidence that their system works On Teh Streetz or anywhere else.

Sorry Kevin, but I don't think you have any idea about what Hisardut is. I haven't read all the links on the Hisardut website but I can tell you that it's exactly as the quote I gave before.
It has become part of the education system in Israel for about 20+ years now. When I was in 8th grade (many years a go), my class went to Hisardut lessons. You learn some patriotism (which I think is good), you learn to respect your parents and teachers (which I also think is good) and you learn to defend yourself against attackers choking you from behind, coming at you with a knife, etc. It's not always the most beautiful art but it's effective. I learned under Dr. Dennis Hanover himself (the creator of the system) and my black belt friend has been taught under his supervision also. I remember that Dr. Hanover once volunteered me to show a move he wanted to teach against an attacker coming to slap me. He was the attacker and even before he taught what to do he said "think fast, what would you do now" and he gave me a nice big slap on the head. It shook me as I stood there like a tree. He asked again, "what would you do now" and slapped again. Only on the third time did I raise my hand in defense which he congratulated me and said that that is exactly the instinct that we have and the most effective thing to do followed by other moves that he then taught in order to not only defend yourself but also neutralize your opponent.
I asked my friend what were the Hisardut classes like. He said they train using body weight as resistance and work on stamina. They have constant full contact fights where they practice the system.
It is exactly as I wrote before: No-nonsense efficient self-defense system. It is taught in the military and to the police force in Israel.

 

[yairhol]

Looks like the usual woo-MA to me, trying to cash in on the popularity of Krav Maga.

Check out their learn-to-be-an-instructor hotline. It's on the page labelled "Instructors/Qualifications" which, if you were naive, you might think would have the backgrounds and qualifications of the people teaching this Hisardut stuff.

Their videos, those that work at all, don't look to be much chop either.

They even have the obligatory waffle about how sport training doesn't work On Teh Streetz, along with the obligatory total lack of objective evidence that their system works On Teh Streetz or anywhere else.

Kevin, on the page you linked to there is the biography of the instructor in the USA headquarters:
http://www.directmeasures.com/management-alon.htm

I think it speaks for itself.

 

[yairhol]

Their videos, those that work at all, don't look to be much chop either.

All the videos worked for me.
I don't know what you wanted to see exactly. High flying kicks and a lot of drama? No, that's not what Hisardut is all about.
Hisardut is more about like the video of the girl taking a way the gun from the attacker in 2-3 moves in less than a second.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Application of techniques in a non-compliant environment on fully resisting opponents would be nice.

The reason we keep calling for this, is that it truly is the only way to learn how to fight.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Kevin, on the page you linked to there is the biography of the instructor in the USA headquarters:
http://www.directmeasures.com/management-alon.htm

I think it speaks for itself.

Help me out here, what's it mean when it says this guy, Alon Stivi, was "World Full Contact Survival Fighting" champion in 1994?

I've sure never heard of a a World Full Contact Survival Fighting Championship, and a googling shows that the only place this term seems to turn up anywhere on the internet is in this one guy's biography.

Searching without the quotation marks gets lots of irrelevant hits and that guy's biography again.

Was he the only guy competing in the World Full Contact Survival Fighting Championship or what?

Apart from that interesting claim to full-contact fame, nothing in his biography hints at any full-contact martial arts experience. He's ex-army, sure, but there are lots of ex-army people in the world and they aren't exactly cleaning up in MMA with their elite ex-army martial arts skills.

As for slapping timid kids in the head, I can do that too if you like. It doesn't make me a tough guy.

Now it's possible that despite showing every sign of woo-MA that these guys really do have full-contact fights constantly, like you claim your friend said. If so they'd be pretty good. However when every other aspect of their web site indicates that they are a martial LARP outfit trying to cash in on the popularity of Krav Maga, and their videos look exactly like the usual woo-MA junk, I have to say I'm skeptical about the claim that they regularly train full-contact.

 

[yairhol]

You can find out about Alon Stivi:
http://www.planetsurvival.com/thehisthisardutdennissurvival/

http://www.hisardut.com/warn.htm

http://www.intelligencesummit.org/speakers/AlonStivi.php

About the name of the championship, it could have been under some previous name since the Hisardut system is ever evolving and I think its champioships are not that popular (as is the Hisardut system).

As for slapping timid kids in the head, I can do that too if you like. It doesn't make me a tough guy.

lol. Dennis Hanover doesn't need to prove he's a tough guy by beating kids.
http://dennis-hisardut.org.il/?CategoryID=185&ArticleID=106&sng=1

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

You can find out about Alon Stivi:
http://www.planetsurvival.com/thehisthisardutdennissurvival/

http://www.hisardut.com/warn.htm

http://www.intelligencesummit.org/speakers/AlonStivi.php

That's the same rubbish we've already seen.

About the name of the championship, it could have been under some previous name since the Hisardut system is ever evolving and I think its champioships are not that popular (as is the Hisardut system).

So at best he's "world champion" of an in-house tournament with a handful of participants. That's assuming that World Full Contact Survival Fighting Championships even exist, since you pulled that story out of your backside. Yet he passes himself off as World Full Contact Survival Fighting Champion.

lol. Dennis Hanover doesn't need to prove he's a tough guy by beating kids.
http://dennis-hisardut.org.il/?CategoryID=185&ArticleID=106&sng=1

That guy on the other hand at least got up and fought once in 1975, although the paranoia and jingoism on that page is pretty thick. I note that it doesn't say where he placed in his one full-contact karate tournament, just that he "won" one match but evil anti-Zionist forces made the judges call it a draw.

 

[Flo]

I have no training in MA but my best friend has a black belt in Hisardut (Also Israeli).

Sorry, but I add my voice to those who call "usual Woo-MA".

The Hisardut® down-to-earth training curriculum is stripped away of non-essentials. It is based on science and experience, not theory.

I'd be happy to see the scientific studies backing this.

Our training method teach universal survival principles that works regardless of the threat and techniques that are simple to learn and easy to remember.

"Universal survival principles" ? Really ? What kind of animal are those ?

Furthermore, as someone who has black belts in Judo, Aikido and Kendo (5th dan), having practiced for decades, I think I can safely say that no (fighting) technique is ever simple or easy to learn, or to remember and apply, even in a controlled situation like a full speed training combat situation or a competition, not to mention actual street fight.

We use realistic training scenarios that are based on actual events to teach practical skills that work in the real world.

Yeah, sure, and at full speed, in the dark, with complete novices who then become invincible fighting machines in no time at all ... heard that a lot of time, seen the results on several occasion (big mouthed guy enters dojo bragging ... )

All the techniques taught are designed to enhance instinctive responses using natural body mechanics while eliminating peripheral moves.

Doesn't work. A lot of the basic training of most MA I've practiced or seen practiced consisted in getting rid of instinctive responses and reflexes that are counter productive (like closing one's eyes when being slapped). Takes a lot of time and repetitions, isn't simple nor easy.

The Hisardut® curriculum is constantly tested and updated with answers to the latest emerging terrorist trends and threats.

You mean it makes you immune to suicide-bombers ?

 

[yairhol]

The pseudo skeptic in you and Kevin is strong.
You have not seen a single demonstration of Hisardut or maybe even not heard of it until my posts yet you seem to know that it doesn't work.
saying that enhancing instinctive responses doesn't work, like you said is so much BS. Raising one's arm up countering a punch or slap doesn't work? really? So what should one do instead? I'd love to hear that.
I don't think you were being serious when you said that instincts like closing ones eyes when being hit is enhanced in Hisardut. That's not what happens. Read my post #126.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Count me amongst the doubters.

We're informing our opinion based on the evidence that has been shown to us.

You're not making a strong case for this stuff.

Check this out.

Not the same guy, but this dude fought in the UFC at least. Has an MMA record of 1-6, and his fights weren't all that pretty. Still, gotta give him props for showing up.

Based on what I've gathered, I'm concluding that this Hisardut stuff is most definitely an Israeli-flavored "McDojo" and may or may not be 'woo-ish' in nature.

 

[yairhol]

Count me amongst the doubters.

We're informing our opinion based on the evidence that has been shown to us.

You're not making a strong case for this stuff.

Check this out.

Not the same guy, but this dude fought in the UFC at least. Has an MMA record of 1-6, and his fights weren't all that pretty. Still, gotta give him props for showing up.

Based on what I've gathered, I'm concluding that this Hisardut stuff is most definitely an Israeli-flavored "McDojo" and may or may not be 'woo-ish' in nature.

Just a note regarding your link.
it says:

He teaches a style he developed himself called "Survival Hisardut".

That's obviously not true so I really don't know what this guy has to do with this thread. Anyone can claim anything they want. So what?
Also giving an example of some guy that lost several fights really doesn't account for anything. If a bad Judoka loses all his fights, does that mean that Judo is not effective?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

The pseudo skeptic in you and Kevin is strong.
You have not seen a single demonstration of Hisardut or maybe even not heard of it until my posts yet you seem to know that it doesn't work.

We're just going on the overblown promises, stock woo-MA sales pitch and total lack of evidence that we've been shown. "Know" is too strong a word. I wouldn't say I "know" it's a McDojo, just that based on the available evidence I strongly suspect it.

saying that enhancing instinctive responses doesn't work, like you said is so much BS. Raising one's arm up countering a punch or slap doesn't work? really? So what should one do instead? I'd love to hear that.

Think about this to yourself for a while - do you ever see boxers raise their arm up to counter a punch or a slap? The answer is no or very rarely. The same goes for karateka in full contact competition, muay thai fighters and everyone else who actually fights full contact,

The reason is, to put it in your own oversimplified terms, that it doesn't work. Against a properly ranged punch coming in straight it's not a high percentage defence, and even if it works you've got one of your arms out there doing nothing but getting in the way.

The correct response is do move out of the way, or absorb the blow by taking it somewhere that doesn't hurt too badly, and punch the attacker back.

Sticking your arm out to block a punch or a slap is a woo-MA defence that works against woo-MA techniques like the big sloppy haymaker. Against proper hooks, jabs and crosses it's just going to get your face rocked, and even against sloppy punches and slaps you are much better off avoiding or absorbing the hit while hitting back.

So that's my contribution to the "E" in "JREF" for the day.

I don't think you were being serious when you said that instincts like closing ones eyes when being hit is enhanced in Hisardut. That's not what happens. Read my post #126.

The point is that techniques "designed to enhance instinctive responses using natural body mechanics" won't work. It's a woo-MA sales pitch, nothing more.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The pseudo skeptic in you and Kevin is strong.

I think this sums up what you are. I've only seen bleevers use the term "pseudo skeptic."

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's not a particularly bold claim.

Nice try, but I'm certain that everyone else in the thread understood which claims I find rather disingenuous.

 

[Meed]

I was kidding, hence the smiley.