Chiropractic diagnosis

[Unsubluxated]

Still being a bit antagonistic?

The body is not better for it because vertebral subluxations don't exist in the medical community. How can the body benefit from a hypothesis that hasn't been proven viable?

Maybe that's why it's a different specialty, apparently the medical brain cannot grasp that there are entities that they are not best equipped to deal with.

 

[Unsubluxated]

No, Unsubluxated, you asserted the correlation between infertility and chiropractic adjustment. It is for you to provide the evidence.

Actually, Johns Hopkins brought it up-I tried to explain why it might work.

 

[Suezoled]

To you who asserted that a chiropractor is a DOCTOR and to whom I replied with

HAHAHAHAHAHA-that has got to be the funniest thing I have ever seen-aren't WE important HAHAHAHAHAHA

No, you're not important at all....

 

[Zep]

Zep, did I ever mention you axlotl is so cuddly looking? I wanna take it to sleep with me like a teddy bear.

I suspect you wouldn't! Axolotls are cold, wet and slimy like an eel... But they have very nice temperaments! And they don't bark or whine at the door for a walkies!

Anyway, back to the show...

 

[Unsubluxated]

That would be YOU in that last sentence, wouldn't it?

Oh, and who has asked you to leave here? Or even to agree with us? What we HAVE asked you for is evidence. That's evidence. E. V. I. D. E. N. C. E. Got any? I mean REAL evidence?

We wait...

Is it really my job to educate you, OK-go to www.subluxation.com

dig around a little, that is, if you really want to learn, otherwise, just feel free to stay here and b**ch at me.

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[Suezoled]

Actually, Johns Hopkins brought it up-I tried to explain why it might work.

You are a liar. You said

There are many documented cases of infertile women concieving after T/L adjustments. Just because it's not a medical solution, doesn't mean it's quackery, especially if it works!

Hopskinsmedstudent asked you to clarify and provide studies. Can you do that?

 

[Unsubluxated]

Really? They it to me about once a year (ie every time I go).

Hmmm, mine says 6 months. My DC says, come back when you feel like you need it. Wow, a revolution!

 

[Suezoled]

I suspect you wouldn't! Axolotls are cold, wet and slimy like an eel... But they have very nice temperaments! And they don't bark or whine at the door for a walkies!

Anyway, back to the show...

oh... can I take you to bed and sleep with you like a teddy bear?

 

[Unsubluxated]

Dentists play a different role in healthcare, but you already know that.
Nice attempt to divert.


what the hell, you don't know what a placebo is? How about double-blind studies?

Is that like pushing in random spots on the spine instead of palpating for fixations, if the vertabra move, it affects the body. You can't do a 'sham'adjustment. It was proven when an asthma study was shot down several years ago. And no, I don't have the study handy, I'm not at my office, sorry.

 

[Unsubluxated]

Here is a good example of the kind of garbage chiros like to publish that they call "scientific research":

http://www.jvsr.com/index.asp







Unsubluxated, please defend this outright quackery.

Hey Suezoled, this is the first post in which infertility was mentioned. Don't call me aliar Iwon't call you a b**ch. Agreed?

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[Suezoled]

Is it really my job to educate you, OK-go to www.subluxation.com

dig around a little, that is, if you really want to learn, otherwise, just feel free to stay here and b**ch at me.

from that site: reasons to buy that piece of quack machinery:
1. Attract and Convert more new patients.
2. Retain the patients I have (High PVA).
3. Have greater certainty in practice.
4. Communicate my message more clearly to my patients.
5. Become less insurance dependant.
6. See more children.
7. Establish a wellness family practice.

I have a real problem with number 6 and 7. Number 6 one can guess why, and number 7... Chiropractors are not family practioners, and they should not advertise themselves as such.

although it works with your laptop computer.

yeah, I had a chiro use that on me. all you have to do it tense one muscle segment and it reads that side as having more stress in the spine. goodness...

Bottomline for that site: anecdotes, gadgets, and something to sell.

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[Suezoled]

Hey Suezoled, this is the first post in which infertility was mentioned. Don't call me aliar Iwon't call you a b**ch. Agreed?

You are a liar. You are what you are.

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[Zep]

Unsubluxated, we are asking: Have you, or have you not, got any references at all to any good quality scientifically acceptable studies anywhere in the world that show any efficacy at all, ANY at all, for chiropractic beyond placebo and normal massage?

If so, put it right here in front of us so we can have it examined by genuine top-flight scientists. If not...well, you know what it means if you don't REALLY have any evidence, don't you! (Hint: Why isn't there any?)

Here's your chance for your evidence for chiropractic to dazzle and completely whack us skeptics. To put us right back in our insular place, prove us totally wrong, stick it right in our faces, right here in our own home. Go for it. Knock yourself right out. We're asking you to do it, no drawbacks for you at all.

Well???

 

[(S)]

What the hell is a 'sham' adjustment?

It would be part of what's called a /blind experiment/. If you, say, want to test a new pill, you don't just go up to people and say, "Hey, here's this new pill which we think might help! Give it a try!" They might be biased one way or the other, and the data will be tainted. Instead you test two groups of subjects, one who gets the real deal, and one who only gets sugar pills. But both groups /think/ they're getting the good stuff, so you can compare the two and see how well your medicine does or doesn't work.

So the 'sham' adjustment is the sugar pill of a blind study. You would, for instance, certainly agree that I have no knowledge of chiropractic adjustments, so I could be used as a 'fake chiropractor' in a blind experiment, because anything I did would certainly be a sham. You send half the subjects to a real chiropractor, and half to me. Since I, of course, have no real knowledge of how to actually be a chiropractor, the patients sent to me can't actually receive chiropractic treatment. So, you can compare how many of my 'patients' get better and how many of the chiropractor's patients got better, and if there is anything at all to chiro., more of his will get better.

Of course, even I'll admit that it'd be quite dangerous for me to try poking at people's backs. In an actual study, you'd probably send the control group -- the group not actually receiving chiropractic treatment -- to a massage or something.

[Edit] Is it possible to do a double-blind study of chiropractic treatment? That would imply that the treat-ers, as well as the treat-ees, would not know whether or not real treatment was being administered, which seems quite a feat to be performed.

 

[geni]

Is it really my job to educate you, OK-go to www.subluxation.com

dig around a little, that is, if you really want to learn, otherwise, just feel free to stay here and b**ch at me.

I dug around a bit. Couldn't find any well conduted studies stupporting the practice Chiropractors. Found a few attemts (not very good ones I might add) to defend against studies that showed negative results.

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[Zep]

Is it really my job to educate you, OK-go to www.subluxation.com

dig around a little, that is, if you really want to learn, otherwise, just feel free to stay here and b**ch at me.

Just looked at your website as linked above. Not one, NOT ONE, piece of scientific evidence or references for chiropractic at all. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Is that what you call EVIDENCE???

Lots of advertising for wizzo gadgets that have all sorts of chiro claims, though. Y'know, it would be interesting to see one of these being tested by a real scientific laboratory, but I suppose it would be made difficult because it claims to be "measuring" effects that have yet to be shown to actually exist. But still...it's a pure advertising site, isn't it! Yes?

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[Unsubluxated]

OK, try icpa4kids.org

Why do you have a problem with kids being adjusted? Five years ago, my daughter was 3 years old and had battled chronic ear and sinus infections her whole life. Our next option was sinus surgery. I decided to try chiropractic on the advice of a friend. Within days her green runny nose had stopped and within 2 weeks, she was pink and healthy for the first time in her life. I know, how dare I not trust the MDs to carve up her beautiful little face. Bad Mom!!!!! My kids get adjusted about once every 2-3 months, they don't get colds, flu, sore throats or URIs. Most kids respond wonderfully to adjustments, which are administered totally different to a child than an adult. I can't count the number of children we see in our office who stop having ear infections, colic, asthma symptoms, allergy symptoms, headaches, sinus problems, bowel problems-I could go on but I fear I'm wasting my breath.

 

[Zep]

oh... can I take you to bed and sleep with you like a teddy bear?

What a kind and lovely thought, but that place is DEFINITELY reserved to another!

 

[Unsubluxated]

You are a liar. You are what you are.

OK, and you are a b**ch. I showed proof I'm not a liar, now show me proof you are not a b**ch.

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[Zep]

OK, well this is how it works in providing evidence here.

First, we provide a a reference to the work needed to be read. For example, here's a URL from your last site with respect to chiropractic treating athsma in children:
New England Journal of Medicine
A Comparison of Active and Simulated Chiropractic Manipulation as Adjunctive Treatment for Childhood Asthma
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/339/15/1013

Next, we quote the relevant bit from that evidence (not the whole lot entire, that wastes everyone's time). Again, from the above example:

Conclusions In children with mild or moderate asthma, the addition of chiropractic spinal manipulation to usual medical care provided no benefit.

See? That's how you provide evidence here.