Chiropractic diagnosis

[Suezoled]

Unsubluxated,

(snipped)

I hope your boyfriend can become a legit DC and that he can build a career collaborating with MDs who will refer some patients to him for the right reasons (but not for asthma, COPD, ADHD, etc).

Cancer, endometriosis, hearing loss, dizziness, insomnia, menopausal discomfort, erectile dysfuction etc etc

 

[bug_girl]

(sets popcorn aside for a moment)
may i make a suggestion?
I think that we need to stop for a moment and define terms for UnSub. if she doesn't know what you mean when you ask about controls and sample sizes, and why they are really the Foundation of science, then we will get nowhere.
By her admission, she doesn't have a scientific background, (or i think i remember that somewhere) so may simply not be understanding why we think the "evidence" she has presented so far smells funny.

i'd do it myself but i have butter all over my fingers. carry on! [heads to kitchen]

edited to add: and of course UnSub needs to define subluxation for us, too.

 

[HopkinsMedStudent]

(edited to add: and of course UnSub needs to define subluxation for us, too.

Even a DC with 40 years of experience would have a tough time with that one.

Subluxation is a catch-all phrase that pretty much means whatever the chiro wants it to mean.

 

[(S)]

You can't do a 'sham' adjustment without altering something in the spine. Therefore, there is no 'sham' adjustment, just an imprecise one.

You're looking at this from the wrong angle. There is no denying that if I go jab someone in the back a few times, in my clumbsy, untrained way, I could very well have an effect on his spine. However -- and this is the key point -- there is no reason to believe that it would be beneficial. You /do/ believe that the chiropractor's adjustment /is/ beneficial. So, the chiropractor's adjustment -- if it works -- should be more effective then me just walking over and poking them a few times.

Now, you have two ways you can argue from here -- besides just telling me that I 'obviously don't understand what you're talking about'. You can either say, yes, the chiropractor will help more people with his adjustments than I will with mine. Or you can say, no, our 'treatments' will be equally effective. If you agree to the first, then that is all we need. If there is anything to chiropractors' practice, they will help more people than me. That's all that's needed for a blind test, and Hopkins can tell you how those turn out. If you agree to the second, then you have just admitted that what a chiropractor does is no more effective than what an untrained buffoon could do. Those are the only two possibilities.

So?

 

[Suezoled]

Define quakery, sound like it's anything that doesn't involve drugs or surgery.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quackdef.html

"Quackery" derives from the word quacksalver (someone who boasts about his salves). Dictionaries define quack as "a pretender to medical skill; a charlatan" and "one who talks pretentiously without sound knowledge of the subject discussed." These definitions suggest that the promotion of quackery involves deliberate deception, but many promoters sincerely believe in what they are doing. The FDA defines health fraud as "the promotion, for profit, of a medical remedy known to be false or unproven." This also can cause confusion because in ordinary usage -- and in the courts -- the word "fraud" connotes deliberate deception. Quackery's paramount characteristic is promotion ("Quacks quack!") rather than fraud, greed, or misinformation.

 

[bug_girl]

Unsub: here's a good summary (althogh a little wordy) of the types of evidence we'd need to accept that chiropractic is indeed effective for ear infections. (note: the research Hopkins posted for lower back pain did follow, mostly, this methodology, and so he has accepted that it may have validity for lower back pain.)

on this page:
http://islands.unep.ch/siemh1.htm
scroll down until you get to "Measuring and experimenting" and read that section. particularly, we need:
--repeatability (why Hopkins is reserving judgement on back pain--can different people produce the same results)
--controls
--replication (the number of tests in an experiment--in this case the number of patients)
--number of variables, or things changed or tested in the experiment. if you have too many variables, you can't say for sure what caused the effect seen.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

@ Unsubluxated attempts to describe chiroquackery as legit. The old "communication" between the body being the cure all for anything and everything affecting the body.

Try that for ALS. A straight spine will do nothing at all. That is because there is tons of "communicating" going on, but the muscles are never going to work because the part of the brain that is affected.


The first chiroquack says he cured deafness with his little "alignments" of the spine. When does hearing have anything to do with the spine??? WTH?

Chiroquacks like to crack your joints, much like a person can crack their own knuckles. Is pretty harmless, but also very ineffective for anything that might be causing any kind of illness.



http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/BCC/00c.html

with the contention that "95 percent of diseases are caused by displaced vertebrae; the remainder by luxations of other joints," and with defensive accusations that, quoting Palmer, ". . . several persons have tried to make fame and reputation for themselves by an endeavor to wrest from me the honor and distinction due me as the discoverer and developer of chiropractic," Palmer opened the first chiropractic college in Davenport, Iowa: a three-week course with no entrance requirements.

The school, called the Palmer Infirmary and Chiropractic Institute, taught simple, "straight chiropractic" -- that is, adjustment of the joints as a treatment for disease. Other chiropractic schools, however, much to the consternation of the original Palmerites, began to dilute pure chiropractic with other therapeutic measures (such as massage, colon irrigation, and heat lamps). This was the beginning of the "mixers" as opposed to the "straights" who limited themselves to manipulation of the spine with "hands only." The pattern of disagreement that began in those early days of chiropractic remains in the practice today.

When the Palmer Infirmary began to totter under the inept leadership of D.D. Palmer, B.J. Palmer entered the picture; leading the "straights," he took over his father's school, now called the Palmer School of Chiropractic. "B.J." was a shrewd business man, and by 1921 the institution in Davenport had an annual income of $1,000,000 at its peak. This was quite a feat, considering the fact t at Palmer had no formal education beyond the 9th grade...


The contention that D.D. Palmer, in establishing the chiropractic profession, restored the sense of hearing in a man who had been deaf for 17 years by adjusting a "bump" in his spine has been thoroughly disputed by accredited authorities -- at least insofar as the explanation of how it occurred is concerned. There has been no real evidence that a misplaced vertebra, causing nerve pressure, is capable of causing deafness. The fact that all the nerves of hearing are enclosed within the skull, with none of these nerves originating in the spinal cord, brings this statement from modern chiropractors:
http://www.chirobase.org/05RB/BCC/07.html

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Shoot, I thought I accidently lost that post, and there it is up there. Oops. Um, to paraphrase I guess:

Chiroquacks and their "communication between brain and body via the spine.

Well, try explaining ALS and the fact that a perfectly straight spine and all the communication as usual is flowing through, but the person is still paralyzed.

And the fact that hepatitus b in the liver will never ever be affected by how straight your spine is.

Nevermind the fact that chiroquacks are just cracking the spine (like people crack their knuckles) and never even have any spine straightening going on no matter what they do.

Just get a massage. I think that's cheaper anyway. Or a good hot bath does the back muscles good too. Many a sore back I've had has been cured that way.

 

[El Greco]

They may call it a closed dislocation, they may call it a suluxated vert., they may call it mechanical dysfunction. They may call it myalgia I don't know.

Damn, I miss all the fun when I sleep... anyway, back to our subject:

"Subluxated vertebrae" and "Mechanical dysfunction" are not proper MD's diagnoses. "Myalgia" is just a symptom. Do you know how a proper MD diagnosis looks like ?

What do you mean "I don't know" ? Can you describe what a "subluxation" is ? What is it called among MDs ? Or is it something that MDs cannot describe ? But you already said they can diagnose it. Are they performing a wrong diagnosis ? Is this what you mean ?

You said that MDs can diagnose a subluxation. Does it show in X-rays ? In MRI ?

Let's say that I have back pain and I go to a chiropractor and he tells me that I have a "subluxation". But I don't trust him and I want to find whether I have realy something he can treat or he is just trying to take my money. So I decide to also go to a MD and get his diagnosis. What is the MD going to identify as the cause of my symptoms ?

 

[Psiload]

Dear me, dear me...

http://www.subluxation.com/html/frameset.htm

This site that Unsubluxated suggested has got to be some of the most blatant quackery I have ever had the misfortune to clap eyes on.

As if it's not bad enough that they're hawking this obvious quack gadget... The Insight Subluxation Station™

No... they sell it primarily as a money making device. They barely bother to pretend like it's a real medical device.

This is their primary pitch:

The Insight Subluxation Station™ is the #1 selling practice building technology on the market today.

Nauseating!

Here's more:

Here is how it can help grow YOUR practice

Our average Total Solution™ graduate has reported an increase in 16 patient visits per case after using the Insight™ in their practice.

They even provide a handy formula calculator, so you can estimate the amount of $$$$ you'll make using their Quackatron 2000.

Yuck!!!

And be sure to read the stomach-churning testimonial (of course there's a testimonial):

Deb became a new patient in this office like so many others, on the advice of a friend.

After spending over $100,000 on medical bills in her attempt to be well, Deb was left on state assistance. Despite this fact, she gladly paid cash for all her care because her perceived value was so high after actually “seeing” her problem on the scans. She in turn referred in her children and over a dozen friends.

I feel dirty after just looking at this website. I feel like I need a shower... and a puke.

I hate quacks.

 

[Suezoled]

yes Psiload, and it also will allow you to treat more children, too.

 

[Psiload]

yes Psiload, and it also will allow you to treat more children, too.

Yes... the children. Won't someone think of the children?

My breakfast is history, and now my lunch is ruined.

 

[Suezoled]

Yes... the children. Won't someone think of the children?

My breakfast is history, and now my lunch is ruined.

Oh don't think I'm biased towards kids. It's just a mess if kids are subject to such potential endangerment of life or at least quality of life for such false promises and treatment of adhd, depression, ear infections, sinusitis, etc. If a parent buys these lies and takes their kid to be "treated" and the kid is injured, whose fault is it, and who suffers? Its the same situation for any person who loves another and suffers for someone else's foolish decision; kids though are a little more vulnerable.

 

[Suezoled]

Sorry, I took her off all her meds, she started care several months later. You believe what you want, but I know what worked for my child.

Unsub took her kid off meds, and let her suffer for several months before the problem cleared up, huh? Yes, the immune response worked for her child. Good on that.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Unsub took her kid off meds, and let her suffer for several months before the problem cleared up, huh? Yes, the immune response worked for her child. Good on that.

I hope the kid is vaccinated. The little meister might not have seen such a prolonged illness if she was vaccinated. If she is, then good, and I hope most illnesses aren't quite as bad as whatever mystery illness it was that she was taking medication for.

What illness was that, and what were the prescribed med?

I just question most anecdotes. Call me a skeptic ***shrugs***

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Dear me, dear me...

http://www.subluxation.com/html/frameset.htm

This site that Unsubluxated suggested has got to be some of the most blatant quackery I have ever had the misfortune to clap eyes on.

As if it's not bad enough that they're hawking this obvious quack gadget... The Insight Subluxation Station™

No... they sell it primarily as a money making device. They barely bother to pretend like it's a real medical device.

This is their primary pitch:

The Insight Subluxation Station™ is the #1 selling practice building technology on the market today.

Nauseating!

Here's more:

Here is how it can help grow YOUR practice

Our average Total Solution™ graduate has reported an increase in 16 patient visits per case after using the Insight™ in their practice.

They even provide a handy formula calculator, so you can estimate the amount of $$$$ you'll make using their Quackatron 2000.

Yuck!!!

And be sure to read the stomach-churning testimonial (of course there's a testimonial):

Deb became a new patient in this office like so many others, on the advice of a friend.

After spending over $100,000 on medical bills in her attempt to be well, Deb was left on state assistance. Despite this fact, she gladly paid cash for all her care because her perceived value was so high after actually “seeing” her problem on the scans. She in turn referred in her children and over a dozen friends.

I feel dirty after just looking at this website. I feel like I need a shower... and a puke.

I hate quacks.

ROFLMAO! I appreciate your post, I won't have to go and be as disgusted because you did a great job of exposing it here

 

[HarryKeogh]

required viewing...

http://pbs-saf.virage.com/cgi-bin/v...231231&videoId=pbssaf1210&query=*&filter=null

 

[Dragonrock]

required viewing...

http://pbs-saf.virage.com/cgi-bin/v...231231&videoId=pbssaf1210&query=*&filter=null

Harry, I can't get it to play, is that the one with Alan Alda?

 

[HarryKeogh]

Harry, I can't get it to play, is that the one with Alan Alda?

yep, Dragonrock, from the PBS show(Scientific American). it's good stuff.

 

[Jas]

from the 'Quackery 4 Kidz' site posted earlier.....

More and more parents are seeking chiropractic care for their children. Many spinal problems seen in adults began as early as birth. Even so called 'natural' birthing methods can stress an infant's spine and developing nerve system. The resulting irritation to the nerve system caused by spinal and cranial misalignment can be the cause of many newborn health complaints. Colic, breathing problems, nursing difficulties, sleep disturbances, allergic reactions and chronic infections can often be traced to nerve system stress.

Since significant spinal trauma can occur at birth, many parents have their newborns checked right away. As the infant grows, learning to hold up the head, sit, crawl and walk are all activities that affect spinal alignment and are important times to have a child checked by a Doctor of Chiropractic

'significant spinal trauma'.....Are there a lot of kids coming out paraplegic or something? What on earth does any of this have to do with allergies or nursing? I think 'adjusting' their spine, when their bones aren't even fully developed, is going to create much bigger problems, especially later in life.