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China Flexes Military Muscle

Segnosaur said:
The myth that the F35 "can't dogfight" is just that.. a myth. It is based on an article from a blog called "war is boring" that looked at a report during a test flight matching an F35 and F16. The problem is, that test was never a comparison of the 2 plane's combat capabilities... (For example, the F35 did not have all of its software/avionics functioning.) Instead, it was a test of the F35s flight control systems, which allowed engineers to adjust its systems to improve performance.

Other more relevant "dogfighting" scenarios have shown the F35 can hold its own in the unlikely event of close-up combat.
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And even if the F35 is a little weaker than the F16, “dogfighting” was a strength of the F16 and it’s still one of the better aircraft out there at t. Dogfighting would not be a strength a big, heavy, underpowered aircraft like the J20 would not match up well even if the F35 is not quite as good as the F16. That’s even before taking pilots, tactics, avionics, maintenance etc into account and all those would heavily favour the F35 as well.
 
Mycroft said:
A thread about an awesome new airplane the Chinese are building morphs into a thread where Jules diagnoses the entire United States with an anxiety disorder.

It seems like this thread was never about the airplane, that this is where you wanted to go with it all along.
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That's OK, in his other one the UK is a basket case because cars or something.
 
Jules Galen said:
I do not know if any specific problems with the Russian engines. My main concern is that a country that is trying to show off its military capability but has to buy key components from a potentially rival nation is going to find it difficult to become top-of-the-heap.

(there may also be an issue using an engine designed for a 4th generation plane in a 5th generation plane in terms of things like efficiency, fuel consumption, etc. But I will leave that for people more familiar with engine design to address the issue. Can the AL31 engine used in the J20 even supercruise?)
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Assuming that's the engine that is used, and Chinese sources say it is not (http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2015-11-25/0848844774.html)...then
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Link seems to be going to a bad page.

And just who are these "chinese sources"? From what I've seen, China doesn't really give many details about their planes.
...so what?
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I've already explained "so what". If your country cannot develop its own jet engine and has to rely on foreign sources, then it should bring into question other aspects of its military technology.

If they can't build engines, how do we know they can develop the plane's frame (which has very tight tolerances in the F35/F22), or the radars, or the same sort of sensor fusion.
The J-20 does not need to "Supercruise" to get the job done. The J-20 just needs to keep the F-22s/F-35s occupied long enough for the J-11s to get inside their stealth envelope and make stealth irelevent.
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Again, that's a very silly scenario. F22s/F35s are not going to be 'occupied' by the J20. The avionics of both planes are probably more than capable of detecting additional threats (like the J11) and handling them long before they get close enough.

Aupercruise is nice, butonly against airforces with little radar and awacs. It won't work unless the F-22s can get a total surprise jump on the Chinese, and considering what the Chinese have in drone and AWACS systems (AWACs more advanced than anything US has) this is not likely to happen. So Supercruise is irrelavent.
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No, its not.

Supercruise allows planes to enter (or leave) an area of engagement quickly, and with a much lower fuel consumption than a plane using afterburners (and fuel seems to be something you're hung up on). Granted, it's not the only factor to use when evaluating the combat capabilities of a plane but its far from irrelevant.
 
fagin said:
That's OK, in his other one the UK is a basket case because cars or something.
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I've been following that one too.

Maybe his next thread will be about how Russia also has the same "must be number one" complex, only their manufacturing has never produced anything the rest of the world wanted except for weapons, and even those were always 4th rate behind what's produced by the United States, the European Union, Great Britain, and the Israelis. That nations only ever bought the Russian arms because they didn't have the political relationships necessary to get the good stuff.

So Russia depends on its energy exports, but energy prices are really low right now so Putin is falling back on its old strategy of expanding its borders to prop up its economy.

Naw, Jules would never start a thread like that.
 
Jrrarglblarg said:
My Toyota minivan was made in Indiana. Previous minivan, a Chrysler, was made in Canada.
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Foreign Direct Investment has IMO been a great thing for the U.S. auto market, which needed a good shaking up. It could be a greater thing for China, the investment rules there are still too tight. In any case, there is a lot of investment between the U.S. and China as it is.
Saber rattling will happen, has happened. There will be new gadgets all around. However as noted by the refueling post above, the U.S. military has substantial logistics on it's side. Logistics wins wars, not that it will come to anything like that any time soon.
 
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LSSBB said:
Foreign Direct Investment has IMO been a great thing for the U.S. auto market, which needed a good shaking up. It could be a greater thing for China, the investment rules there are still too tight. In any case, there is a lot of investment between the U.S. and China as it is.
Saber rattling will happen, has happened. There will be new gadgets all around. However as noted by the refueling post above, the U.S. military has substantial logistics on it's side. Logistics wins wars, not that it will come to anything like that any time soon.
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From a Military point of view, China is a regional power at best.
ANyway, I see this more as a propaganda move by China. It is depending on Ecomonic and Political muscle,not Military Muscle for it's power.
 
Mycroft said:
I've been following that one too.

Maybe his next thread will be about how Russia also has the same "must be number one" complex, only their manufacturing has never produced anything the rest of the world wanted except for weapons, and even those were always 4th rate behind what's produced by the United States, the European Union, Great Britain, and the Israelis. That nations only ever bought the Russian arms because they didn't have the political relationships necessary to get the good stuff.

So Russia depends on its energy exports, but energy prices are really low right now so Putin is falling back on its old strategy of expanding its borders to prop up its economy.

Naw, Jules would never start a thread like that.
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And Putin is trying like hell to play a kingmaker in US Politics.
 
crescent said:
To add to that, the combat radius of most American military aircraft is only limited by the endurance of the pilots. Air to air refueling is routine in the American military in a way the dwarfs all other nations. The American aircraft would arrive in any combat situation with the same amount of fuel (or more) as any adversary. The refueling would be done well away from the combat area, and the tanker planes protected by additional aircraft along with physical and electronic counter-measures.
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Supposedly (per Jules) the J-20 will snipe the tankers and AWACS from beyond radar detection range with their superior Phoenix 2.0 A2A missiles, before rushing in to ambush the F-22s at BVR.
 
theprestige said:
Supposedly (per Jules) the J-20 will snipe the tankers and AWACS from beyond radar detection range with their superior Phoenix 2.0 A2A missiles, before rushing in to ambush the F-22s at BVR.
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He is also a flag waver for the Russian PAK FA. So good the Russians only want to equip one squadron and foist it on to the Indians.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
He is also a flag waver for the Russian PAK FA. So good the Russians only want to equip one squadron and foist it on to the Indians.
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Except of course the Indians may not want it...

From: http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-newest-fighter-jet-is-fifth-generation-in-name-only-2016-2
The PAK FA...has multiple technological problems. Among these problems are the plane's "engine performance, the reliability of its AESA radar, and poor stealth engineering."
 
Indian Air Force isn't keen and they are also talking to France about getting the Rafale C land version in addition to the carrier M version they are already signed for.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
He is also a flag waver for the Russian PAK FA. So good the Russians only want to equip one squadron and foist it on to the Indians.
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And that attitude is the type responsible for the SU-27 eclipsing the F-15 and leaving it in the dust during a demo after the cold war...or the Mig-21s getting copius kills on the F-4s in Vietnam. You're so obsessed with supremacy that you forget the world moves on.

Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjRdlaBC17Y
 
I am not going to be too bravado because I don't want to scare anyone, but let me just say all bets are off if we send in our Orions and 757s
 
I do not think what the Chinese can do NOW that is important. It is the fact that they are learning about technology and gaining experience. In another few years they would have caught up to the rest of the world. Then we had better learn the Chinese language!
 
rjh01 said:
I do not think what the Chinese can do NOW that is important. It is the fact that they are learning about technology and gaining experience. In another few years they would have caught up to the rest of the world. Then we had better learn the Chinese language!
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Umm

They caught up with the yanks tech about 15 years ago
 
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