China Flexes Military Muscle

[crescent]

I don't think the J-20 needs to match the F-22 one-on-one. It needs to keep the F-22 busy enough so that the J-11s can move in for the close-in fight where stealth will not matter - and I think it can do this with a bay full of long-range BVR missiles (and china makes really good missiles). I see no reason why it can't do this.

That makes sense, but I don't see why the reverse would not also be true. The F-22 only needs to keep the J-20 busy so the F-16s, F-18s, F-15s, F-35s or allied aircraft can deal with the J-11s.

U.S. aircraft never operate alone, or with a single type of aircraft at once.

 

[Jules Galen]

I do not know if any specific problems with the Russian engines. My main concern is that a country that is trying to show off its military capability but has to buy key components from a potentially rival nation is going to find it difficult to become top-of-the-heap.

(there may also be an issue using an engine designed for a 4th generation plane in a 5th generation plane in terms of things like efficiency, fuel consumption, etc. But I will leave that for people more familiar with engine design to address the issue. Can the AL31 engine used in the J20 even supercruise?)

Assuming that's the engine that is used, and Chinese sources say it is not (http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2015-11-25/0848844774.html)...then so what?

The J-20 does not need to "Supercruise" to get the job done. The J-20 just needs to keep the F-22s/F-35s occupied long enough for the J-11s to get inside their stealth envelope and make stealth irelevent. Then it become a brawl. And the J-20 is plenty large enough to carry 25,000 lbs of gas, and this will help get the job done.

Aupercruise is nice, butonly against airforces with little radar and awacs. It won't work unless the F-22s can get a total surprise jump on the Chinese, and considering what the Chinese have in drone and AWACS systems (AWACs more advanced than anything US has) this is not likely to happen. So Supercruise is irrelavent.

 

[Jules Galen]

That makes sense, but I don't see why the reverse would not also be true. The F-22 only needs to keep the J-20 busy so the F-16s, F-18s, F-15s, F-35s or allied aircraft can deal with the J-11s.

U.S. aircraft never operate alone, or with a single type of aircraft at once.

The F-16s don't have the fuel capacity to fight such a fight in the wide-open expansesof the western pacific. Likewise, the J-11s carry almost twice the fuel load of the F-15s, so the F-15s are at somewhat of a disadvantage, too (especially since the J-11 can out-manuever andout accelerate it). So that leaves the F-35s and the F-18s.

The F-35 is a dog. Anyone can shoot it down at close range. The F-18 is manueverable and fast, but no match for the J-11s. So....this doesn't look good.

 

[cullennz]

China build new planes. Yanks assume they will be attacked.

Paranoia OK

Why would they attack someone who owes them so much money?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

China build new planes. Yanks assume they will be attacked.

Paranoia OK

Why would they attack someone who owes them so much money?

Yeah, that.

 

[Jules Galen]

China build new planes. Yanks assume they will be attacked.

Paranoia OK

Why would they attack someone who owes them so much money?

It's a social sickness - the drive to be #1 regardless of what that means. Americans are inured to it in High School via their football teams - that vie for supremacy over the football teams of other High Schools. The School with the best Football team is #1 and the coolest. Same with University and College. The people who don't go to college root for the local city teams. It's all competition all the time - insensate competition.

Now there is China with its Big Population, Big Economy and Big Money and the ability to make high-speed rail work on a massive scale and even launch Quantum Communications Satellites (as well as build the world's fastest computer with their own home-made silicon chips). As a result, these guys are seen as a threat because they threaten America's #1 ranking (and Americans learn in High School that being #1 means everything). So America feels it needs to pivot to asia to show the little bastards who is boss. But the little bastards got different ideas - they got a different program. And they figure that since they ran America out of North Korea when they were a dirt-poor country, keeping America in Check as the wealthiest country in history should be very possible. So they invest in military technology and build weapons.

Now...China doesn't want to use these weapons, because as you say America owes China too much money for China to just willy-nilly start a conflict. But, Americans dream on anyways. Americans dream of being undispuited #1 without rival and with the ability to crap on small countries at will - especially countries like Syria who don't like to take orders from Washington. However, America looks to China and despairs, because China is not weak and they will not take orders or be bullied - and history has proven that they can also kick arse in a war.

Such is the way of things.

 

[cullennz]

It's a social sickness - the drive to be #1 regardless of what that means. Americans are inured to it in High School via their football teams - that vie for supremacy over the football teams of other High Schools. The School with the best Football team is #1 and the coolest. Same with University and College. The people who don't go to college root for the local city teams. It's all competition all the time - insensate competition.

Now there is China with its Big Population, Big Economy and Big Money and the ability to make high-speed rail work on a massive scale and even launch Quantum Communications Satellites (as well as build the world's fastest computer with their own home-made silicon chips). As a result, these guys are seen as a threat because they threaten America's #1 ranking (and Americans learn in High School that being #1 means everything). So America feels it needs to pivot to asia to show the little bastards who is boss. But the little bastards got different ideas - they got a different program. And they figure that since they ran America out of North Korea when they were a dirt-poor country, keeping America in Check as the wealthiest country in history should be very possible. So they invest in military technology and build weapons.

Now...China doesn't want to use these weapons, because as you say America owes China too much money for China to just willy-nilly start a conflict. But, Americans dream on anyways. Americans dream of being undispuited #1 without rival and with the ability to crap on small countries at will - especially countries like Syria who don't like to take orders from Washington. However, America looks to China and despairs, because China is not weak and they will not take orders or be bullied - and history has proven that they can also kick arse in a war.

Such is the way of things.

Weird.

It's like "You can't have better planes than us!!"

The irony is while China has slowly turned open trade deals with the west. Trump wants to ditch trade deals with the rest of the west.

If it helps I know a tonne of Chinese people and they are all friendly and funny as.

They are immigrating here in quite decent numbers

 

[Jules Galen]

Weird.

It's like "You can't have better planes than us!!"
The irony is while China has slowly turned open trade deals with the west. Trump wants to ditch trade deals with the rest of the west.

If it helps I know a tonne of Chinese people and they are all friendly and funny as.

They are immigrating here in quite decent numbers

That's exactly it: it's the disease of #1'ism (and America has a bad societal infection).

I remember the shock...the disbelief...when Japan started importing Lexus' and Acura's into this country. For years, American's had been saying that the Japanese were incapable of making larger cars or luxury cars )when these cars are actually easier to build because there is more space and weight to work with). Anyways, the Lexus's and Acura's blew away everything - Cadillac, BMW, Merecedes - you name it and red-blooded Americans were just shocked.

Afterwards, I heard from Americans that the the Japanese couldn't build a full-size pickup truck (ya' got to be freakin' kidding me!).

Many red-blooded Americans are in great despair that the USofA is getting whipped by China. But instead of reflecting about what has happened and carefully crafting a recovery strategy, many Americans have instead embraced wishful thinking (predicting the Chineses Economy will somehow collapse).

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...headed-for-a-1929-style-depression-2016-06-30

It's a serious social pathology.

 

[Andy_Ross]

(there may also be an issue using an engine designed for a 4th generation plane in a 5th generation plane in terms of things like efficiency, fuel consumption, etc. But I will leave that for people more familiar with engine design to address the issue. Can the AL31 engine used in the J20 even supercruise?)

Russia are also having engine problems. Initial production batches of the PAK FA will be delivered with a variant of the F117, AL-31F used by the Su-27 as the all new izdeliye 30 is having problems.

 

[catsmate]

I don't think the J-20 needs to match the F-22 one-on-one. It needs to keep the F-22 busy enough so that the J-11s can move in for the close-in fight where stealth will not matter - and I think it can do this with a bay full of long-range BVR missiles (and china makes really good missiles). I see no reason why it can't do this.

After being obliterated by air-to-air missiles. Seriously the days of close range gun duels are over, barring some weird scenarios.

 

[Andy_Ross]

After being obliterated by air-to-air missiles. Seriously the days of close range gun duels are over, barring some weird scenarios.

So no spitfires?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

That's exactly it: it's the disease of #1'ism (and America has a bad societal infection).

I remember the shock...the disbelief...when Japan started importing Lexus' and Acura's into this country. For years, American's had been saying that the Japanese were incapable of making larger cars or luxury cars )when these cars are actually easier to build because there is more space and weight to work with). Anyways, the Lexus's and Acura's blew away everything - Cadillac, BMW, Merecedes - you name it and red-blooded Americans were just shocked.

Afterwards, I heard from Americans that the the Japanese couldn't build a full-size pickup truck (ya' got to be freakin' kidding me!).

Many red-blooded Americans are in great despair that the USofA is getting whipped by China. But instead of reflecting about what has happened and carefully crafting a recovery strategy, many Americans have instead embraced wishful thinking (predicting the Chineses Economy will somehow collapse).

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...headed-for-a-1929-style-depression-2016-06-30

It's a serious social pathology.

Your culturally uninformed third party reports fail to account for on the ground reality. American import tariffs and restrictions limited the economic viability of importing large cars and full sized pickups into the US. In fact, the big three bought compact trucks from Japan with bare rails and installed American made pickup beds stamped "ford courier" and "Dodge Ram d50" and Subaru put rear-facing seats in the back of their unibody pickup which they called "MPV" for Multi Passenger Vehicle.

Assertion of American cultural belief rejected as false due to incorrect analysis and failure to provide citations.

 

[catsmate]

So no spitfires?

Unless somebody's dropped back in time...

 

[Segnosaur]

Well, considering China is a country that made mass transit work via high-speed trains...

Not sure why that's relevant.

Its not like China invented the concept of mass transit or high speed trains. They have built a successful network, but that has as more to do with its population density and command economy than it does its technological abilities.

...has an impressive space program...

Some of the technology in the Chinese space program was purchased from Russia.

...I'd say they are perfectly capable of resolving any problems they have with their engines.

Then why haven't they?

They've been working on engines for years, and they haven't even got the bugs worked out of their previous engine design, let alone the one for the J20. They've also had the advantage of borrowed/stolen technology from Russia and the US, and they still haven't perfected them.

They are the most populous country with the largest economy on earth....so I am not so quick to dismiss their efforts.

Their population size does give them certain advantages, but they seem to be lagging its major competitors when it comes to military technology.

I don't think the J-20 needs to match the F-22 one-on-one. It needs to keep the F-22 busy enough so that the J-11s can move in...

That's a rather silly argument.

With all of the technology that the U.S. has in their planes, do you really think that the F22s will be so distracted by J20s that the J11s will 'sneak in' some how?

A more likely scenario is that the F22 will be busy with the J20s, the J11s will pop up on the radar screens, the F22s will fire off a couple of missles and wipe them out, then it will go back to take care of the J20s.

he F-16s don't have the fuel capacity to fight such a fight in the wide-open expansesof the western pacific.

Which is going to become irrelevant because the F16 will be replaced with the F35... (a plane that, thanks to its single engine design and internal weapons bays that reduces drag)... and the F35 will have a pretty good combat radius.

The F-35 is a dog. Anyone can shoot it down at close range.

Actually no, its not.

The myth that the F35 "can't dogfight" is just that.. a myth. It is based on an article from a blog called "war is boring" that looked at a report during a test flight matching an F35 and F16. The problem is, that test was never a comparison of the 2 plane's combat capabilities... (For example, the F35 did not have all of its software/avionics functioning.) Instead, it was a test of the F35s flight control systems, which allowed engineers to adjust its systems to improve performance.

Other more relevant "dogfighting" scenarios have shown the F35 can hold its own in the unlikely event of close-up combat.

 

[Mycroft]

That's exactly it: it's the disease of #1'ism (and America has a bad societal infection)...

A thread about an awesome new airplane the Chinese are building morphs into a thread where Jules diagnoses the entire United States with an anxiety disorder.

It seems like this thread was never about the airplane, that this is where you wanted to go with it all along.

 

[Giz]

A thread about an awesome new airplane the Chinese are building

Its like reading a Chinese version of Tom Clancy

(Damn! Is everything outsourced now?)

 

[crescent]

The F-16s don't have the fuel capacity to fight such a fight in the wide-open expansesof the western pacific. Likewise, the J-11s carry almost twice the fuel load of the F-15s, so the F-15s are at somewhat of a disadvantage, too (especially since the J-11 can out-manuever andout accelerate it). So that leaves the F-35s and the F-18s.
.

With all of the technology that the U.S. has in their planes, do you really think that the F22s will be so distracted by J20s that the J11s will 'sneak in' some how?

A more likely scenario is that the F22 will be busy with the J20s, the J11s will pop up on the radar screens, the F22s will fire off a couple of missles and wipe them out, then it will go back to take care of the J20s.


Which is going to become irrelevant because the F16 will be replaced with the F35... (a plane that, thanks to its single engine design and internal weapons bays that reduces drag)... and the F35 will have a pretty good combat radius.

To add to that, the combat radius of most American military aircraft is only limited by the endurance of the pilots. Air to air refueling is routine in the American military in a way the dwarfs all other nations. The American aircraft would arrive in any combat situation with the same amount of fuel (or more) as any adversary. The refueling would be done well away from the combat area, and the tanker planes protected by additional aircraft along with physical and electronic counter-measures.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Jules hates the F-35.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Lexus's and Acura's blew away everything - Cadillac, BMW, Merecedes

Blew them away how? Lexus and Acura are just tarted up Toyotas and Hondas.

When did BMW and Mercedes become American?

 

[The Don]

Blew them away how? Lexus and Acura are just tarted up Toyotas and Hondas.

When did BMW and Mercedes become American?

In the case of BMW, when they started making them in Spartanburg, in the case Mercedes when they started making them in Vance. Then again, by that measure Lexus and Acura are American too