Merged Chick Tracts

[HansMustermann]

Nitpick: there's incorrect stereotyping of schizophrenics in this thread.

(kerikiwi posted before I finished typing and first previewed this post.)

The Biblical god is a narcissistic sadistic homicidal psychopath, not a schizophrenic.

If you're trying to say he has multiple personalities then the term is "multiple personality disorder".

Actually, I dunno about the others, but I genuinely meant schizophrenic. As in, you know, bizarre logic, inapropriate affect responses, speech problems (to the extent that we need priests, rabbis or imams to translate what he was _actually_ trying to say), and so on.

I mean, seriously, someone loves you and proclaims you his favourite child... but plans to torture you for eternity? If that's not an unhinged mode of thinking, I don't know what is.

And it seems to only get worse over time.

Looks pretty schizophrenic to me.

Granted, psychopathic too, but that kind of comorbidity isn't entirely unheard of.

At any rate, no, I didn't meant dissociative identity disorder. If I meant that, I would have said so.

 

[Robin]

Actually, you do realize that Limbo is the outer circle of Hell, right? It's not Purgatory or anything. And at least for Catholics the dogma has always been that unbaptized babies will undergo _some_ form of punishment for that, just, you know, not the worst.

For a more in detail description of it and the theological history of it, try the catholic encyclopaedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

You'll notice that for most of history, starting with St Augustine, essentially the dogma was that they'll fry. And at least one pope actually publicly denounced the heresy that fire wouldn't be involved for babies. (Though he did not invoke infallibility on that one apparently.) But even that heresy still involved _some_ punishment, just, you know, they didn't want babies to fry.

And while in the meantime milder interpretations have become more popular, technically nobody rejected the old ones either. Essentially the church fell back to "ugh, we don't really know, after all."

Finally, you'll notice that Limbo is _permanent_ for unbaptized people. There's no prayer that will get those babies outta there.

But really, either way, we're talking a god who'd look at that poor, severely premature born girl -- if she had died in the process -- and essentially decide that she's damned (to a debatable extent) by original sin and lack of baptism. And totally not worthy of heaven.

And since the Church says that the worst pain of Hell is caused by being cut off from God - so these babies would get the worst pain.

 

[RSLancastr]

in the same way that P.E. teachers often teach geography
pure class

"...and those who can't teach, teach apostles"?

 

[HansMustermann]

And since the Church says that the worst pain of Hell is caused by being cut off from God - so these babies would get the worst pain.

Essentially, yes. Most of the debate historically has been just whether (A) they get only that, or (B) they get barbecued too. With mostly B winning.

But one way or the other, the problem, as illustrated in that Pope's denouncement, is that any idea that you can get saved without Jesus, by just being innocent of any wrongdoing, is the heresy of Pelagius. The church really doesn't like that idea. And if you start letting newborn babies and fetuses into heaven or grant them other exemptions, you're essentially granting an exemption from needing Jesus and baptism to be saved.

 

[Cainkane1]

Essentially, yes. Most of the debate historically has been just whether (A) they get only that, or (B) they get barbecued too. With mostly B winning.

But one way or the other, the problem, as illustrated in that Pope's denouncement, is that any idea that you can get saved without Jesus, by just being innocent of any wrongdoing, is the heresy of Pelagius. The church really doesn't like that idea. And if you start letting newborn babies and fetuses into heaven or grant them other exemptions, you're essentially granting an exemption from needing Jesus and baptism to be saved.

Well the catholics may believe unbabtised babies go to limbo or Hell or whatever but ol Jack chick stresses that children go to Heaven no matter what. I'll try to locate that particular tract.

 

[Robin]

Well the catholics may believe unbabtised babies go to limbo or Hell or whatever but ol Jack chick stresses that children go to Heaven no matter what. I'll try to locate that particular tract.

William Lane Craig too. He says that the Old Testament massacres of children were a kindness because if they had let the kids grow up they would have gone to Hell, but by massacring them as children they ensure that they go to Heaven.

Genocide, for the want of a better word, is good.

 

[geni]

Actually, you do realize that Limbo is the outer circle of Hell, right? It's not Purgatory or anything.

Well no at least some versions have it portrayed as a better place than Purgatory (which depending on what version you subscribe to is not a fun place at all)

And at least for Catholics the dogma has always been that unbaptized babies will undergo _some_ form of punishment for that, just, you know, not the worst.

International Theological Commission would beg to differ:

Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7529&CFID=52316268&CFTOKEN=11784448

(Though he did not invoke infallibility on that one apparently.)

There have been about two infallible statements in catholic history. It's a pretty recent doctrine.

 

[Cainkane1]

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1055/1055_01.asp

Heres another tract about how you had better treat the Jewish people right or else. Yes everybody has to be nice to these folks except god himself.

 

[Robin]

There have been about two infallible statements in catholic history. It's a pretty recent doctrine.

And I get the feeling most Catholics wish it had never happened.

 

[Robin]

Well no at least some versions have it portrayed as a better place than Purgatory (which depending on what version you subscribe to is not a fun place at all)

The important distinction is that Purgatory, you get out of eventually.

Limbo or Hell - never.

 

[ddt]

There have been about two infallible statements in catholic history. It's a pretty recent doctrine.

Papal infallibility, yes (since 1870). The Ecumenical Councils also have made infallible statements, and that doctrine is much older.

 

[Robin]

International Theological Commission would beg to differ:

Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision.
​

Serious hope that God won't submit them to neverending torment?

Well that is all right then.

 

[Scott Haley]

A lot of Protestants believe that a person who didn't know about Jesus, but did his best to lead a good life, will go to heaven. Under that rule, if Rabbi Waxman had died before his friend had handed him the note, he wouldn't be tortured for quintillions of years.

 

[Robin]

A lot of Protestants believe that a person who didn't know about Jesus, but did his best to lead a good life, will go to heaven. Under that rule, if Rabbi Waxman had died before his friend had handed him the note, he wouldn't be tortured for quintillions of years.

But of course Chick is carefully implying that Waxman already knew about the scriptures and was avoiding them.

 

[Weak Kitten]

The important distinction is that Purgatory, you get out of eventually.

Limbo or Hell - never.

Except for the Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven version. I haven't read the first one but Escape from Hell is a really good book. I'm not sure who would or would not like it though, it has a rather unique view on the afterlife and the nature of salvation.

 

[Robin]

Except for the Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven version. I haven't read the first one but Escape from Hell is a really good book. I'm not sure who would or would not like it though, it has a rather unique view on the afterlife and the nature of salvation.

By brother could probably recite both books word for word, but I never got around to reading them, despite sharing his belief in the doctrine of Nivenal Infallibility.

 

[HansMustermann]

Well no at least some versions have it portrayed as a better place than Purgatory (which depending on what version you subscribe to is not a fun place at all)

Few and far in between, if you count the actual sources which had the authority to do so. Even fewer if you ask them to be actually compatible or consistent with other doctrines.

International Theological Commission would beg to differ:

1. The ITC didn't even exist until 1969

2. Read your own quote. They don't actually say that the more horrid interpretation is false. They only say they _hope_ it is.

There have been about two infallible statements in catholic history. It's a pretty recent doctrine.

Since the _formal_ definition of infallibility only 1 actually.

The thing though is that it's actually not as new an idea as you think. The First Vatican Council of 1870 didn't really come up with a new idea, it just clarified an older one by defining when it really applies.

And even according to the Catholics, it _does_ apply retroactively, so in effect almost a dozen pronouncements qualify as such even though all but one are from before 1870.

Basically even the fact that you remember it as about two is actually proof of what I'm talking about. Because the second one that gets waved around lots, the immaculate conception of Mary, is from 1854. You know, before 1870.

 

[HansMustermann]

Well the catholics may believe unbabtised babies go to limbo or Hell or whatever but ol Jack chick stresses that children go to Heaven no matter what. I'll try to locate that particular tract.

I guess it depends on the particular sect he's into.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1055/1055_01.asp

Heres another tract about how you had better treat the Jewish people right or else. Yes everybody has to be nice to these folks except god himself.

Very much so.

 

[Cainkane1]

David Drake wrote an interesting book about hell but I forget the name of the book.

 

[Sabrina]

I have trouble with most of Jack Chick's tracts, but not for the reason you might think.

Nope, my trouble is I can't help but remember Chick Boy from the now-defunct webcomic Ghastly's Ghastly Comic and how he tried to fit the convoluted logic of the tracts to convert Freddie, who was either a pre-op male-to-female transsexual or a hermaphrodite, I forget which. Makes me guffaw every time I read one.