chi power or not skeptics please advize

[crimresearch]

"...Dismissing the sensations I felt as being mere suggestion and not "real" defeats the purpose of bothering to do any sort of test. Particularly when the results I experienced were confirmed by another individual. If I'm going to run a test, I'm not going to reject any results I don't like with an unfalsifiable hypothesis, whether it be the explanation of "power of suggestion" or "power of chi. That's not kosher in my book."

'Dismissing' and 'controlling for' are two different things.

The power of suggestion is an observable phenomenon which is pretty well understood..

The 'Power of Qi' is a magical label that purports to explain almost everything in the universe.

Big difference.

 

[Ashles]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: chi power or not skeptics please advize

The whole thing was set up as a test for me to experience what they were claiming. Now the test was informal, not scientific and not conclusive. Thus you don't hear me proclaiming that it has been "proven". It hasn't, not to my satisfaction anyway.

The hypothesis of "expectations", "placebo effect" or other reasons to indicate that I should not believe my own subjective experience is possible, but it is also an unfalsifiable hypothesis for this instance. I can only state what I experienced, not why.

Dismissing the sensations I felt as being mere suggestion and not "real" defeats the purpose of bothering to do any sort of test. Particularly when the results I experienced were confirmed by another individual. If I'm going to run a test, I'm not going to reject any results I don't like with an unfalsifiable hypothesis, whether it be the explanation of "power of suggestion" or "power of chi. That's not kosher in my book.

I'd still like to hear other ideas about what it could have been. Any suggestions?

Beth

Beth I am confused as to what you are asking. It seems to be placebo effect, but you appear not to like that explanation.

It is almost certainly a psychocomatic effect created because you want to perceive something.

We welcome your addition to the forum, but you have to admit that you have spent a lot of time staring at candles trying to get the flames to move, or standing trying to get people to create physical sensations on your skin.

If you spend any amount of time doing that you will certainly feel you are getting results.

My first question is why you are doing this in the first place.
It is obvious that you have a desire to believe in some form of paranormal activity - people who don't do not spend their time as you are.

Secondly you don't seem to be approaching this in the scientific manner that you should certainly be capable of.
Are you asking your friends to pick certain areas of your skin and asking them to produce the sensations on randomly selected areas (without knowing which ones they are)? What is the protocol of your test?
If it is a good protocol it sounds a lot more testable than your candle experiment.

Thirdly - is it really wise to be involving your daughter in this? She will want to please her Mum so she is not exactly an unbiased subject.

Beth you can couch your experiments in statistical and scientific terms, but it is very clear that you really want to experience some paranormal ability. I do not think you being honest with yourself about how strongly you are looking for this.

You really need to be in contact with some form of unbiased third party.

 

[apoger]

Not as high as the certainty that you are completely misrepresenting what he is saying.

My apologies if I misrepresented anything.



jmercer, have you tried the simple control of going through all the motions, but NOT placing your hands near the targets head like you told them you would? Or placing you hands there and then not doing the visualization? I suspect that if you did, that you would find the results interesting.

 

[jmercer]

Yep, I've done that, and I've stood 2-3 feet away. They feel nothing, which is exactly what I would expect. I suspect that the visualization process causes the body to react in a certain way - briefly, here's the statement:

I'm speculating that the visualization process dialates the blood vessels in the palms, causing the palms to radiate additional heat. (As if you were working out and your body was trying to dump excess heat.) I'm also contemplating the thought that the same visualization causes the sweat glands in the palms to secrete, creating additional moisture in the immediate area of the palms, aiding in carrying the heat away from the palms and to the subject's skin. This would go "hand-in-hand" with the body's normal mechanism for heat release.

That's about it... if the heat strip/sensor or whatever I find doesn't change, that leaves me with only the question of how moisture released from my palms may affect (or not affect) the process. (Oops- edited because I just realized it also leaves the question of how sensitive an instrument I need to detect heat for this. Anyone know how sensitive we are to heat changes?)

Otherwise it's all psychosomatic, and the sensations are simply not real. No matter how it turns out, it's going to be interesting.

 

[apoger]

I would be very surprised to find that you can generate enough heat from your palms that it can be detected by a persons skin six inches away. I look forward to hearing how the sensor experiment goes.

 

[jmercer]

I look forward to hearing how the sensor experiment goes.

Me, too.

 

[jmercer]

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. It is appreciated.

Beth

You're most welcome.

 

[Beth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: chi power or not skeptics please advize

Beth I am confused as to what you are asking. It seems to be placebo effect, but you appear not to like that explanation.

It is almost certainly a psychocomatic effect created because you want to perceive something.[/q]

No, you're assuming I wanted to perceive something. That assumption is unwarranted and incorrect.

We welcome your addition to the forum, but you have to admit that you have spent a lot of time staring at candles trying to get the flames to move, or standing trying to get people to create physical sensations on your skin.

The staring at flames I'll admit to. I have not however, spent time trying to get people to create physical sensations on my skin. You're making some serious leaps to conclusions there.

If you spend any amount of time doing that you will certainly feel you are getting results.

That's a rather clever catch 22 there. How can one explore such an area without spending time on it? And if spending time on it to (i.e. running experiments) is tantamount to making one's results suspect, how could proof ever be obtained?

My first question is why you are doing this in the first place.

Because I wish to know with more certainty than I currently have whether any of this stuff is "real" in an objective sense. I don't trust the psychics and I don't trust the skeptics - both sides have their biases. Hence, I run my own experiments to the best of my abilities.

Thank you for expressing your remaining concerns. However, you have made a number of erroneous assumptions that I am not interested in correcting because I do not wish to make that personal information public.

Beth

 

[Beth]

Hi, apoger - I think that you may have misunderstood me. I don't believe in chi, nor do I believe that there's anything going on that doesn't have a physical explanation associated with it. The question for me is "What is the correct physical explanation?"

Cool. I'll be interested to hear your results. I wish you had some ideas about possible causes of the other (non-heat) sensations.

Beth

 

[Beth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: chi power or not skeptics please advize

It's not unfalsifiable. That's why psychology experiments should use double-blind testing etc. You are always going to have trouble discounting the human factor while humans are involved.

It's unfalsifiable in this particular instance, not in general.

 

[jmercer]

Cool. I'll be interested to hear your results. I wish you had some ideas about possible causes of the other (non-heat) sensations.

Beth

Sorry, Beth - the best I can offer you on those is simply psychosomatic reactions from strong suggestion.

 

[Beth]

'Dismissing' and 'controlling for' are two different things.

The power of suggestion is an observable phenomenon which is pretty well understood..

The 'Power of Qi' is a magical label that purports to explain almost everything in the universe.

Big difference.

The power of suggestion is a rather well-documented phenomenon, but I would hesitate to say it is well understood. While I now wish I had attempted a more controlled test, I wasn't expecting to feel anything at all and thus didn't put much thought into it. It was just a spontaneous test.

However, I'm not going to reject what I did experience as being nothing more than the power of suggestion. I just don't think it fits the situation. Granted, I haven't given many details, so I can understand if you wish to dismiss it with that explanation. But I'm still looking for alternative explanations. Any ideas other than that? For me or for Brassicaman?

Beth

 

[crimresearch]

Well, I've been interested in that sort of thing for a long time, and the closest I can come is speculation as to why so many people report similar sensations, (although others don't) when practicing such disciplines.

It seems likely that one qigong commonality is the fascia training, and some recent research that shows a weak direct current which appears to change in response to qigong and its visualizations...

Could that current somehow produce a 'sympathetic' effect a few inches, or feet away?

I have no idea and in fact I am skeptical...but I can't think of an explanation that isn't even harder to defend... (except of course, suggestibility... ).

And I hesitate to lean on that direct current theory too strongly, given that some of the Qigong systems that are made up out of whole cloth, and violate every practice of the ones which do work the fascia, still have many people report heat, tingling, etc.

I would suggest that looking to 'energetic' explanations for Qigong sensations is ground that has been well plowed with no fruit to speak of.

Sorry to not be of more help.

 

[gecko]

I hope I'm not stepping on anyone else's toes with this one.

Focus on your arm. Try to warm it up. It warms up, doesn't it? I don't think this is some strange, inert power. Maybe its blood flow, maybe its tricking our mind. I can't exactly explain it. But we can make ourselves feel things. You might just be looking at it, expecting to feel something, and as a result feel something.

However, I have read about studies in russia where apparently a few people could heat up the scientists conducting experiments to alarming rates. I don't remember the book though, and I don't really place my faith in its authenticity...

I don't know if this helps.

 

[Wudang]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: chi power or not skeptics please advize

It's unfalsifiable in this particular instance, not in general.

Sure, but if you want falsifiability then you won't get it by posting a sketchy narrative on here. I'm sure there are a number of people who could provide more help if they could see what went on. As is we have to go with Occam's razor and known explanations for similar events. Sorry.

 

[Wudang]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: chi power or not skeptics please advize

That's a rather clever catch 22 there. How can one explore such an area without spending time on it? And if spending time on it to (i.e. running experiments) is tantamount to making one's results suspect, how could proof ever be obtained?

Beth, the problem is that you're both the experimenter and the subject. You need to involve another like-minded person and try to avoid giving each other cues etc.

 

[jmercer]

Well, I've been interested in that sort of thing for a long time, and the closest I can come is speculation as to why so many people report similar sensations, (although others don't) when practicing such disciplines.

It seems likely that one qigong commonality is the fascia training, and some recent research that shows a weak direct current which appears to change in response to qigong and its visualizations...

I'd love to look at that recent research - there's so little information around about fascia! I'm always looking at this stuff myself, and this would be an interesting topic for a private email list that I'm on. Can you point me in the direction of it?

(Edited to add this further thought)

My main reason for interest is that if weak current exists and changes in response to qigong, that would be the first real indicator that I've had that the fascia can be truly manipulated by qigong, and that's (to me) a really important bit of data.

 

[jmercer]

I hope I'm not stepping on anyone else's toes with this one.

Focus on your arm. Try to warm it up. It warms up, doesn't it? I don't think this is some strange, inert power. Maybe its blood flow, maybe its tricking our mind. I can't exactly explain it. But we can make ourselves feel things. You might just be looking at it, expecting to feel something, and as a result feel something.

However, I have read about studies in russia where apparently a few people could heat up the scientists conducting experiments to alarming rates. I don't remember the book though, and I don't really place my faith in its authenticity...

I don't know if this helps.

Nah, toe-stepping is allowed here, don't worry about it.
And you're right to doubt anything that comes out of Russia about this kind of stuff. There seems to be a lot of psuedo-scientific bogus claims these days, and for some reason, a lot of them seem to come from Russia.

What you described in your second paragraph is actually a larger subject, in my opinion - "To what extent can the mind control the body?" Maybe I'll start a thread over in the sciences section about that one.

 

[CodeComplete]

I too am interested in the explantions for the warming and also the 'elastic' feeling when holding the ball in Tai Chi.

There was a program in the UK a few months ago where a man went into a martial arts studio in London's China Town and asked the teacher to demonstrate a Wing Chun style one inch punch, which the teacher oblidged. The man then asked the teacher to choose one of his students and he would then demonstrate a zero inch punch.
He stood behind the teacher's student and proceeded to imitate the posture of the one inch punch and without touching the student he simply tensed his arm. The student doubled up as if he had been punched in the back. The teacher and other students looked on in amazement.
Now some people will say that this was the result of projecting chi and that this man must be a master, others it was a camera trick setup for the program, some will say that the student reaction was staged etc. etc.
The only explanation necessary is that the man with the zero inch punch chi projection was the mentalist performer Derren Brown...

 

[jmercer]

No mystery there. I can do no-inch punches (and do so), and there's no chi involved.

(Edited to add the below)

I just re-read your post and realized I'd missed an important part. It's impossible to do a no-inch punch without touching the target, because it's no longer a no-inch punch. If that's the case, then it's a hoax.

A true no-inch punch in taiji requires a lot of practice, but there's nothing mysterious about it once you understand all the fundamentals behind it. (Too extensive to go into here, but take my word on it - it's all physical.)