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Charles in Cloud Cuckoo Land again

Hybrid seeds and grains that have been produced which demand huge amounts of water?

Whether or not they are hybrid from traditional breeding methods, or a more efficient method of genetic modification, what is the accuracy of the claim that they require more water than non-hybrids?
 
Hybrid seeds and grains that have been produced which demand huge amounts of water?

Whether or not they are hybrid from traditional breeding methods, or a more efficient method of genetic modification, what is the accuracy of the claim that they require more water than non-hybrids?

If you think about it many of the GM varieties are touted as being higher yielding than traditional non-GM varieties so they probably do require more water, but that is because they are yielding more which usually we consider a good thing! There are also GM crops that are supposed to provide a higher yield given certain conditions for example ones that cope better with less water than a traditional variety so even in not-ideal conditions can provide a yield whereas a more traditional variety would just die or yield very little.
 
If you think about it many of the GM varieties are touted as being higher yielding than traditional non-GM varieties so they probably do require more water, but that is because they are yielding more which usually we consider a good thing! There are also GM crops that are supposed to provide a higher yield given certain conditions for example ones that cope better with less water than a traditional variety so even in not-ideal conditions can provide a yield whereas a more traditional variety would just die or yield very little.

Which is exactly what I thought was likely to be the case, without ever having read anything about it!
 
No, he's no great shakes intellectually but he makes up for it with noise level. I'd love to know if he's read a science book in his life.

You generally know when he does, because he'll suddenly pop up and start spouting scare stories from it; exactly as he did a few years back with his "grey goo" nanotechnology fears.

In some ways there's nothing sadder than a man with no purpose whatsoever, striving to find a role. The trouble is that by virtue of his birth he gets coverage. I partly blame the media for continuing to give his wacky views - be they on SCAM, architecture, society, science etc - oxygen. He's got nothing to say and he's saying it far too loud.

All that said, I'm not pro-GM foods. Even a stopped watch, and all that ;)
 
Yes, he's at it again. The comments boards are alive with support for this troublesome aristocrat (will nobody rid us of him?). I think he would really like us to go back to hunting-gathering. On the contrary, because organic farming is so inefficient it would deforest the planet if it were allowed to take over. On the contrary, there is an argument for the most intensive farming possible, which would use less land and release more for biodiversity.

It's a tragedy that this man, whose position depends on an accident of birth, has no understanding of what science and evidence are, yet commands enormous respect for his emotive and evidence-free opinions. Oliver Cromwell was a great man.
If, by great man you mean murdering, puritan rectum who I would have paid to have the pleasure of hanging by a hook through his bum and piercing with roughened dull needles then I can agree that cromwell was great.
 
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If, by great man you mean murdering, puritan rectum who I would have paid to have the pleasure of hanging by a hook through his bum and piercing with roughened dull needles then I can agree that cromwell was great.
It was a figure of speech using an extreme interpretation for effect. But his statue still stands in Parliament Square.
 
I've always been uncomfortable with the organic farming lot. Sure it's nice that rich people in the developed world get a validating sense of smugness from growing sub-par vegetables but I just don't see how such methods can be expected to feed the teeming billions in years to come.

What's sub-par about them?

Modern farming methods have done a lot of damage to the environment. Given that the US produces far more food than it consumes, efficiency doesn't seem that important. I don't think organic farming should be the only kind but fewer pesticides and herbicides ending up in the water supply can only be a good thing.
 
What's sub-par about them?

Modern farming methods have done a lot of damage to the environment. Given that the US produces far more food than it consumes, efficiency doesn't seem that important. I don't think organic farming should be the only kind but fewer pesticides and herbicides ending up in the water supply can only be a good thing.
Organic farming is very bad for the environment. It uses twice the fossil fuel of conventional farming, and it's a myth that it doesn't use pesticides. For some bizarre reason some quite toxic chemicals are allowed, such as copper sulphate. just because they are traditional. But it avoids fungicides, which then allows the development of aflatoxins on the surface of fruit. The soil is compacted more because of all the extra tractor traffic.

Of course modern farming is damaging as well, but organic is a belief system largely devoid of science. I am outraged by the way the supermarkets are pushing it, because they can get bigger margins from customers who don't know any better. I can't buy Fair Trade bananas in Tesco now because the shelves are full of organic ones. So I buy the unbranded bananas - anything but organic.

There are sustainable alternatives to intensive farming which are based on science, such as Integrated Pest Management and LEAF. Organic is just another New Age fad.
 
Organic farming can also be very bad for animal welfare.

Enthusiasts make much of organically-farmed animals having more freedom, and it's true that you couldn't market battery eggs as organic even if it were possible to produce them without any pharmaceuticals. However, free-range and organic are by no means the same thing. Lots and lots of animals are free-range, but because they still benefit from veterinary medicines thay aren't classed as organic.

It's pathetic to see some of the organically-farmed animals I enounter. Small, underweight and often chronically parasitised. The hardline opposition to routine vaccination seems to be easing, but at one point organic was by definition antivax for the animals.

I was presented with two young ewes back in the spring, for post mortem. They were a year old, but the size of six-month-old lambs. They were hill sheep, and would have been running free on the hill irrespective of whether they were organic. However, the organic rules prevented the very necessary preventative worm treatments these sheep need.

Apparently there had been ten deaths before anyone even thought to bring one in for a look-see. If this isn't an animal welfare problem I don't know what is. Young ewes suffering and dying from an entirely preventable condition, indeed one that is routinely prevented in normal farming. The bodies were undersized for their age, as I said, and they were very very thin indeed. They had obviously been suffering from severe diarrhoea for quite some time.

Now I'm not saying all organic animals are like that. Some are as healthy as conventionally farmed livestock. But I get the distinct impression that for some farms, organic is a way of regaining profitability when they're simply not much good at the business. Instead of looking after the animals properly, including routine healthcare, these things are omitted in the name of "organic", and the resulting inflated prices compensate for the inefficiency.

I was really sorry for these poor sheep. And to think that people are paying a premium for meat from that farm in the belief that organic animals are well treated and heathier. Bah, humbug.

Rolfe.
 
It's pathetic to see some of the organically-farmed animals I enounter. Small, underweight and often chronically parasitised. The hardline opposition to routine vaccination seems to be easing, but at one point organic was by definition antivax for the animals.

I was presented with two young ewes back in the spring, for post mortem. They were a year old, but the size of six-month-old lambs. They were hill sheep, and would have been running free on the hill irrespective of whether they were organic. However, the organic rules prevented the very necessary preventative worm treatments these sheep need.

Apparently there had been ten deaths before anyone even thought to bring one in for a look-see. If this isn't an animal welfare problem I don't know what is. Young ewes suffering and dying from an entirely preventable condition, indeed one that is routinely prevented in normal farming. The bodies were undersized for their age, as I said, and they were very very thin indeed. They had obviously been suffering from severe diarrhoea for quite some time.

Now I'm not saying all organic animals are like that. Some are as healthy as conventionally farmed livestock. But I get the distinct impression that for some farms, organic is a way of regaining profitability when they're simply not much good at the business. Instead of looking after the animals properly, including routine healthcare, these things are omitted in the name of "organic", and the resulting inflated prices compensate for the inefficiency.

I was really sorry for these poor sheep. And to think that people are paying a premium for meat from that farm in the belief that organic animals are well treated and heathier. Bah, humbug.


Any homeopaths involved?
 
Well, on the plus side, we can only hope that this blundering buffoon decides to take up farming. If he saw the hard hours farmers (free-range, organic, or otherwise) worked, much less had to suffer through them, it might take some of the shine off his inane statements.

I once did have the pleasure of visiting an actual 'sustainable' farm btw. They tried to minimize pesticide usage by crop placement, importing predators and judicious usage of pesticides instead of whole-scale spraying. They monitored the land for nutrient depletion, and regularly rotated crops. They also tried to use as many parts of the crops as possible for various uses.

In short, they did seem to have achieved a more environmentally friendly form of farming without major impact on their production (just more work). They would have laughed this version of 'organic farming' off the farm though.

P.S. "upon all of these Cromwell's record was a lasting bane. By an uncompleted process of terror, by an iniquitous land settlement, by the virtual proscription of the Catholic religion, by the bloody deeds already described, he cut new gulfs between the nations and the creeds. 'Hell or Connaught' were the terms he thrust upon the native inhabitants, and they for their part, across three hundred years, have used as their keenest expression of hatred 'The Curse of Cromwell on you.' ... Upon all of us there still lies 'the curse of Cromwell'.

Most accurate description of that monster I've heard.
 
P.S. "upon all of these Cromwell's record was a lasting bane. By an uncompleted process of terror, by an iniquitous land settlement, by the virtual proscription of the Catholic religion, by the bloody deeds already described, he cut new gulfs between the nations and the creeds. 'Hell or Connaught' were the terms he thrust upon the native inhabitants, and they for their part, across three hundred years, have used as their keenest expression of hatred 'The Curse of Cromwell on you.' ... Upon all of us there still lies 'the curse of Cromwell'.

Most accurate description of that monster I've heard.
All right all right - point taken! Can we leave Cromwell now?:blush:
 
All right all right - point taken! Can we leave Cromwell now?:blush:

Sure. Some things are going to get knee jerk reactions though, and praising a mass murderer is pretty much one of them.

Also, Winston Churchill is just fun to quote.
 
Do you think if you could somehow trick Charles into becoming a Catholic we'd get a better king when the Queen dies?
 

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