Chaos Magic

[AkuManiMani]

Oh gosh, I'm already pulling enough aggro as it is. Don't really need to tell them my whole life story, nor is it necessary for me to convince them of the validity or amazingness my accounts. As I already said, I've other reasons for mentioning what I have and the details, as given so far, are more than sufficient.

Key word hilited.

You seem to have convinced yourself of the validity or amazingness your accounts.

You seem highly motivated to divest me of my alleged sense of validity and amazingness regarding these accounts

This is EXACTLY the essence of what I've been getting at. What one considers to be "supernatural" or "mundane" are all relative to what they consider to be explicable within their own conceptual model of reality. To an individual living 200 years ago, the vast majority of the technology we use today would appear "magical". Likewise, the picture of reality science will provide a couple centuries from now will probably seem extraordinary to the average scientist of today. Such violations do not invalidate their experiences of the world but merely highlight the limitations of their understanding.

Reality is vaster and stranger than any single conception of it can ever contain.There are bound to be occurrences and anomalies that completely violate any given individual's personal model of reality. It is not prudent to automatically re-interpret those anomalies to suit one's preconceptions, just as it is not a good idea to assume that they cannot be understood; in either case, one closes off their mind to potentially learning something new. Our current body of scientific understandings is not the be-all-end-all of reality; it will forever be tentative and incomplete. One would be wise to keep this in mind, especially when assessing accounts of apparently anomalous phenomena, or one's own extraordinary experiences. There are always things beyond one's epistemic horizons, no matter how knowledgeable or smart they may be.

I haven't noticed these occurrences and anomalies that completely violate my personal model of reality.

Bully for you!

So personal experience is the only arbiter of reality?

No, but it is the only connection one can have to it.

 

[ExMinister]

I'm sorry but the idea of having a full on conversation with a mere "auditory hallucination" is a bit laughable to me. Yes, the information was specific and the exchange was as lucid as the one we're having now. That combined with the fact that the "voice" was also able to physically manipulate my body kinda clinches the issue for me. If what I experienced was just a "hallucination" then so is what I'm experiencing right now.

I admit to only having read through page 11 or so of this thread so if someone has already mentioned this, disregard.

It IS possible to have a full-on conversation with an auditory hallucination. The information can be specific and lucid and the personality CAN seem completely separate from your own. That is found in schizophrenia. A good example of how this works, and the way schizophrenia can sometimes present, going from the hearing of occasional auditory messages to the onslaught of full-on psychosis, can be found in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183830

I am NOT saying that I believe your experiences are due to the early stages of schizophrenia, nor I am in any way qualified to say that.

I actually have no idea how common it is for this to happen outside schizophrenia in the otherwise "normal" population. For all I know, maybe it is quite common (?).

I just feel it's important to point out that it is in fact possible for the brain to generate an auditory hallucination like this.

 

[AkuManiMani]

Your point being...?

They're imaginary.

Thats nice. Got any interesting points to make?

 

[AkuManiMani]

I'm sorry but the idea of having a full on conversation with a mere "auditory hallucination" is a bit laughable to me. Yes, the information was specific and the exchange was as lucid as the one we're having now. That combined with the fact that the "voice" was also able to physically manipulate my body kinda clinches the issue for me. If what I experienced was just a "hallucination" then so is what I'm experiencing right now.

I admit to only having read through page 11 or so of this thread so if someone has already mentioned this, disregard.

It IS possible to have a full-on conversation with an auditory hallucination. The information can be specific and lucid and the personality CAN seem completely separate from your own. That is found in schizophrenia. A good example of how this works, and the way schizophrenia can sometimes present, going from the hearing of occasional auditory messages to the onslaught of full-on psychosis, can be found in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183830

I am NOT saying that I believe your experiences are due to the early stages of schizophrenia, nor I am in any way qualified to say that.

I actually have no idea how common it is for this to happen outside schizophrenia in the otherwise "normal" population. For all I know, maybe it is quite common (?).

I just feel it's important to point out that it is in fact possible for the brain to generate an auditory hallucination like this.

Now -that- is genuinely interesting. Thanks.

I'm curious if there are any features of such cases that are consistent with phenomena like my friend and I experienced [such as a "spark"-like sensation at the crown of the head, and an accompanying high pitched ringing sound at the onset of the "contact"]. Also, do you know of any documented accounts of schizophrenics gaining veridical information from such conversant "hallucinations"? *_*

 

[AkuManiMani]

LSD definitely violated my personal model of reality, but then I reminded myself that I was taking LSD. I'm wondering though, would you accept that as an explanation for what occurred or would you chalk it up to my limited understanding or a reinterpretation of the anomalies I experienced to suit my preconceptions?

The scenario, as given, doesn't seem to be incongruent with your interpretation of it. However, if you spontaneously had similar experiences that were able to provide you with information you had no prior knowledge of then I'd say that such an interpretation would be a bit contrived, to say the least.

 

[Hokulele]

This is true.

Short of providing actual physical evidence, I don't think there really is any way to solidly establish anything about the accounts short of relying on our own word. It doesn't really matter what information is provided, how it is articulated, or how much of it is forthcoming, the fact of the matter is that we're stuck with a situation in which all you really have is the hearsay of some stranger(s) on the other side of the internet.

I really don't think it is possible to prove any of the claims I've presented [especially not on a web forum] but it is possible to speculate and brainstorm based on the information as presented. There is really no need to believe or disbelieve a proposition presented to you in order to evaluate it. Even if one personally finds a claim/proposition questionable it helps to tentatively assume it true for the sake of evaluating a scenario "from the inside", so to speak. In this way one can atleast determine it's logical self-consistency and possible (in)consistency with one's own prior experiences and exposure to other propositions.

I've found that such a suspension of judgement has been very useful in situations where information is not forthcoming or where I've had to deal with individuals with a history of insidious lying. While such an approach doesn't guarantee that you'll get conclusive answers, it does provide a way to generate an array of potentially useful hypotheses that one would otherwise not even consider. Eventually, some semblance of the truth usually makes itself apparent.

And that is the problem. I cannot tentatively assume it is true, as there is just not enough information to even do that. Without some other corroborating account or evidence, I really can't conclude anything more than "cool story, bro". I mean, based on only the posts by you in this thread, it would be just as easy to speculate that the entire story is made up just to rile a bunch of people on a skeptics' forum.

I'll definitely give that one a read, as I've found Ramachandran's lectures to be very informative and thought provoking.

Please do, although I do not necessarily accept all of his hypotheses on various topics, he always make me reevaluate what I think I know.

 

[AkuManiMani]

This is true.

Short of providing actual physical evidence, I don't think there really is any way to solidly establish anything about the accounts short of relying on our own word. It doesn't really matter what information is provided, how it is articulated, or how much of it is forthcoming, the fact of the matter is that we're stuck with a situation in which all you really have is the hearsay of some stranger(s) on the other side of the internet.

I really don't think it is possible to prove any of the claims I've presented [especially not on a web forum] but it is possible to speculate and brainstorm based on the information as presented. There is really no need to believe or disbelieve a proposition presented to you in order to evaluate it. Even if one personally finds a claim/proposition questionable it helps to tentatively assume it true for the sake of evaluating a scenario "from the inside", so to speak. In this way one can atleast determine it's logical self-consistency and possible (in)consistency with one's own prior experiences and exposure to other propositions.

I've found that such a suspension of judgement has been very useful in situations where information is not forthcoming or where I've had to deal with individuals with a history of insidious lying. While such an approach doesn't guarantee that you'll get conclusive answers, it does provide a way to generate an array of potentially useful hypotheses that one would otherwise not even consider. Eventually, some semblance of the truth usually makes itself apparent.

And that is the problem. I cannot tentatively assume it is true, as there is just not enough information to even do that. Without some other corroborating account or evidence, I really can't conclude anything more than "cool story, bro". I mean, based on only the posts by you in this thread, it would be just as easy to speculate that the entire story is made up just to rile a bunch of people on a skeptics' forum.

I've no evidence sufficient to prove or disprove that either way...

I'll definitely give that one a read, as I've found Ramachandran's lectures to be very informative and thought provoking.

Please do, although I do not necessarily accept all of his hypotheses on various topics, he always make me reevaluate what I think I know.

I like you. You seem like you'd be a really laid back cat IRL

 

[Hokulele]

I've no evidence sufficient to prove or disprove that either way...

Exactly.

I like you. You seem like you'd be a really laid back cat IRL

Eh, I have my moments, at least according to my husband.

 

[ExMinister]

That -is- genuinely interesting. I'm curious if there are any features of such cases that are consistent with phenomena like my friend and I experienced [such as a "spark"-like sensation at the crown of the head, and an accompanying high pitched ringing sound at the onset of the "contact"]. Also, do you know of any documented accounts of schizophrenics gaining veridical information from such conversant "hallucinations"? *_*

Definitely read through the thread if you have a chance.

Personally I have experienced the high-pitched ringing you describe. I have experienced the tingling in the top of my head (I used to believe it was the crown chakra - if you are familiar with chakras, it was in that area). Also sensations in my mid forehead. I even used to get all-over electrical sensations, which many spiritual people I've known consider to be a sign of spirit contact. I have experienced a loud hammering vibrating sensation in my head before having the sensation of leaving my body, and on multiple occasions I have experienced a tingling in my low back area before I sensed or felt the presence of a "spirit."

It turns out I do actually have complex partial seizures. When I went back on seizure medication, all of the above types of experiences stopped.

My hunch is that the seizure medication has a dampening effect on whatever area of the brain is involved in generating those kinds of feelings. Obviously that's just a hunch from an experiencer and not the opinion of a neurologist, so take with grain of salt.

As far as veridical information, I believe that many of us attempt to verify the information we receive in these ways. The schizophrenic individual in the thread I mentioned certainly tried. Ultimately the voice/s failed him. I have no idea if his experience is typical for his type of schizophrenia.

In your position, I would do what I have done in regard to my own weird experiences and evaluate them as critically as possible. Like you, I thought I was a "magnet" for strange experiences over the years. Other people TRIED to generate these things; for me they just happened. It may well be connected to whatever is happening in my brain as a seizure patient.

I don't know, but it does seem that these same things also happen in the non-epileptic population, and I can think of no reason why certain areas of the brain wouldn't be active in everyone at certain times. Perhaps in certain seizure patients they just happen with more frequency.

Perhaps they are more prone to happen in the brains of certain people in general.

Some of what I got was accurate, some not. Maybe the same will be true for you.

 

[AkuManiMani]

I've no evidence sufficient to prove or disprove that either way...

Exactly.

Oooh...The Farce is strong with this one.

I hereby dub you Akulele!

I like you. You seem like you'd be a really laid back cat IRL

Eh, I have my moments, at least according to my husband.

^__^

 

[AkuManiMani]

Now -that- is genuinely interesting. Thanks.

I'm curious if there are any features of such cases that are consistent with phenomena like my friend and I experienced [such as a "spark"-like sensation at the crown of the head, and an accompanying high pitched ringing sound at the onset of the "contact"]. Also, do you know of any documented accounts of schizophrenics gaining veridical information from such conversant "hallucinations"? *_*

Definitely read through the thread if you have a chance.

Personally I have experienced the high-pitched ringing you describe. I have experienced the tingling in the top of my head (I used to believe it was the crown chakra - if you are familiar with chakras, it was in that area). Also sensations in my mid forehead. I even used to get all-over electrical sensations, which many spiritual people I've known consider to be a sign of spirit contact. I have experienced a loud hammering vibrating sensation in my head before having the sensation of leaving my body, and on multiple occasions I have experienced a tingling in my low back area before I sensed or felt the presence of a "spirit."

It turns out I do actually have complex partial seizures. When I went back on seizure medication, all of the above types of experiences stopped.

My hunch is that the seizure medication has a dampening effect on whatever area of the brain is involved in generating those kinds of feelings. Obviously that's just a hunch from an experiencer and not the opinion of a neurologist, so take with grain of salt.

As far as veridical information, I believe that many of us attempt to verify the information we receive in these ways. The schizophrenic individual in the thread I mentioned certainly tried. Ultimately the voice/s failed him. I have no idea if his experience is typical for his type of schizophrenia.

In your position, I would do what I have done in regard to my own weird experiences and evaluate them as critically as possible. Like you, I thought I was a "magnet" for strange experiences over the years. Other people TRIED to generate these things; for me they just happened. It may well be connected to whatever is happening in my brain as a seizure patient.

I don't know, but it does seem that these same things also happen in the non-epileptic population, and I can think of no reason why certain areas of the brain wouldn't be active in everyone at certain times. Perhaps in certain seizure patients they just happen with more frequency.

Perhaps they are more prone to happen in the brains of certain people in general.

Some of what I got was accurate, some not. Maybe the same will be true for you.

I've already started reading the thread you linked and its quite interesting [it also has a lot of familiar poo-siders doin their usual do all over the discussion ]. I've a sneaking suspicion that there's more to these conditions and related episodes than meets the eye...

 

[Sledge]

You seem awfully invested in trying to prove this. Evidence...? >:}

You seem awfully invested in not answering questions. It must be terrible to fear losing your specialness that much.

 

[AkuManiMani]

You seem awfully invested in not answering questions. It must be terrible to fear losing your specialness that much.

There is a strong odor of poo-poo on your responses. The voices in my head tell me you're full of it

 

[Sledge]

So to summarise: you've had some magical experiences, but you won't tell us what they are and we're all mean, nasty, close-minded people for not believing you. You and all the other woos, chum. I do find it amusing how you want to be special, but you're just another deluded person who wants to believe that a random misfire in their brain has given them insight into how the world REALLY works.

 

[AkuManiMani]

So to summarise: you've had some magical experiences, but you won't tell us what they are and we're all mean, nasty, close-minded people for not believing you. You and all the other woos, chum. I do find it amusing how you want to be special, but you're just another deluded person who wants to believe that a random misfire in their brain has given them insight into how the world REALLY works.

OMG! You're RIGHT! Its...Its true... </sob>

I need supremely rational intelligent folks, such as you, to validate myself and explain to me how the world REALLY works. My own world is coming undone. </snif> Please -- you're the only one who can rescue me from my madness, Sledge! *_*

 

[Sledge]

Nope, not interested. You're far too amusing as you are.

 

[AkuManiMani]

nope, not interested. You're far too amusing as you are.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

</wrist>

 

[tsig]

So to summarise: you've had some magical experiences, but you won't tell us what they are and we're all mean, nasty, close-minded people for not believing you. You and all the other woos, chum. I do find it amusing how you want to be special, but you're just another deluded person who wants to believe that a random misfire in their brain has given them insight into how the world REALLY works.

Mystical experiences seem to make people incapable of any kind of direct communication. Every thing has to be couched in elaborate circumlocutions and roundabout expressions.

 

[tsig]

Nope, not interested. You're far too amusing as you are.

Agreed, besides you can't teach someone anything when they already know everything.

 

[Zanders]

Now -that- is genuinely interesting. Thanks.

I'm curious if there are any features of such cases that are consistent with phenomena like my friend and I experienced [such as a "spark"-like sensation at the crown of the head, and an accompanying high pitched ringing sound at the onset of the "contact"]. Also, do you know of any documented accounts of schizophrenics gaining veridical information from such conversant "hallucinations"? *_*

There are also many other common experiences that seem to be universal among people that have experiences like this. I talked about some in one of my threads.

I'm not sure how people explain all of these away. There certainly appears to be some universal phenomena when people go through things like this.