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Chaos Magic

And yet we're still missing the elephant in the living room: Why is there such an impetus to discount, recast, and reinterpret someone's first hand account of their own experiences?


I don't think there is such an impetus. People are offering alternative explanations, not new accounts of the details. You've been offered the reasons behind them by several folks. In short, the simpler explanation is mundane and is based on a simple ontology; positing discarnate entities requires a more complex ontology.

None of us experienced it, though, so I don't have a very good idea of what happened or why.

One of the things that I have noticed in all of the accounts that I have read in this forum -- and this includes yours and UE's -- is that details of them are specifically and admittedly left out. That throws up a red flag to any reader right off the bat.
 
Isn't it true that some drugs can come back and make you hallucinate even if you haven't taken them any time recently?

The answer to this is a bit sketchy, from what i have learned in school, i wouldn't see evidence that long term " flashbacks" happen ( like when a hippy says they have a flashback 10+ years later). But short term flashbacks ( within a month or so.) i have personally seen people have ( And they were short term, and somewhat like what AKu is claiming. ).
 
I've had plenty of my posts edited and even romoved -- some of them were not even of a mocking tone. As I already said, this thread alone is chock full of insults, slights, and mockery by numerous posters. I don't see any call to have those individuals penalized or banned.


I'm not asking to have you or anyone else banned. I expressed amazement that you have gotten away with it. I don't excuse anyone's behavior in this or any other thread.

Personally, I think you had best let the matter drop before a moderator notices these posts and searches back through the thread, though.
 
And yet we're still missing the elephant in the living room: Why is there such an impetus to discount, recast, and reinterpret someone's first hand account of their own experiences?

The explanation for the experience is discounted because:
- memory is fallible
- hallucinations are known to accompany seizures
- psi remains unproven

I'm mostly just following along, but I'd also be interested in you actually stating what the 1800s guy with the cell phone reported. It would perhaps clarify your point.
 
I don't think there is such an impetus. People are offering alternative explanations, not new accounts of the details. You've been offered the reasons behind them by several folks. In short, the simpler explanation is mundane and is based on a simple ontology; positing discarnate entities requires a more complex ontology.

None of us experienced it, though, so I don't have a very good idea of what happened or why.

Thats exactly my point. None of you were there to experience it yet there are particular individuals not only expressing certainty that I [the person who experienced the events first hand] am not a credible witness but also that they know better concerning what happened than I do. That is not skeptical doubt; that is bald presumption.

One of the things that I have noticed in all of the accounts that I have read in this forum -- and this includes yours and UE's -- is that details of them are specifically and admittedly left out. That throws up a red flag to any reader right off the bat.

Like I said, I left out particular details of what was discussed specifically because it was of a personal nature. I also have no desire or need to convince anyone to uncritically accept my account; there have been plenty of posters expressing reasonable doubt concerning my story and I've no objection to them, their opinions, or conduct. What I AM objecting to is the certainty being expressed by others that the account I'm giving is inaccurate and the presumption that certain third parties know what really happened better than I. The reason for these presumptions are obvious: the account, as given, appears to violate certain individuals' preconceptions about reality and, upon the basis of these beliefs, they are vehemently discounting it. This is more reminiscent of the behavior of YECs, than of skeptics.

I also find it very telling that when I questioned PixyMisa about his own auditory hallucinations and expressed similar doubt about the veracity of the account he'd give he interpreted that as an "ad hom". Then there were a bunch of posters rushing in to his defense to protect him the the cruel evil Aku. I saw no one rushing to the defense of posters like Limbo as they were facing similar replies. Anyone observing the occurrences here without bias can see that there is a clear and blatant double standard being applied.
 
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I'm not asking to have you or anyone else banned. I expressed amazement that you have gotten away with it. I don't excuse anyone's behavior in this or any other thread.

Personally, I think you had best let the matter drop before a moderator notices these posts and searches back through the thread, though.

If they do that then I'd assume that the list of individuals to be penalized should be quite lengthly.
 
AkuManiMani, a few minutes ago, God spoke to me.

He told me that you were making all of this up.

What say you?
 
I'm mostly just following along, but I'd also be interested in you actually stating what the 1800s guy with the cell phone reported. It would perhaps clarify your point.

He'd report to his colleagues that the device provided information to him of events going on on the other side of town without any wiring or apparent physical connection to the remote location.
 
So is it the case, or is it not, that I have definitive proof that you are making all of this up?
 
He'd report to his colleagues that the device provided information to him of events going on on the other side of town without any wiring or apparent physical connection to the remote location.

Well, thanks for answering anyway.

I'm no expert on the 1800s state of mind, but I'd think it more likely to hold the thing out and go "I hear so-and-so's voice coming out of this machine."

Anyway, how do either of the above hypotheticals make your point, which seems to be that your hallucination is special while others' were not?
 
Thats exactly my point. None of you were there to experience it yet there are particular individuals not only expressing certainty that I [the person who experienced the events first hand] am not a credible witness but also that they know better concerning what happened than I do. That is not skeptical doubt; that is bald presumption.


Again, they are expressing an opinion about the interpretation of the experience and not the experience itself. The interpretation of the experience is fair game.



Like I said, I left out particular details of what was discussed specifically because it was of a personal nature.


Which is fine and I am not asking you to divulge anything personal. I just wanted you to know that that aspect of the account does raise red flags.


I also have no desire or need to convince anyone to uncritically accept my account; there have been plenty of posters expressing reasonable doubt concerning my story and I've no objection to them, their opinions, or conduct. What I AM objecting to is the certainty being expressed by others that the account I'm giving is inaccurate and the presumption that certain third parties know what really happened better than I. The reason for these presumptions are obvious: the account, as given, appears to violate certain individuals' preconceptions about reality and, upon the basis of these beliefs, they are vehemently discounting it. This is more reminiscent of the behavior of YECs, than of skeptics.

I also find it very telling that when I questioned PixyMisa about his own auditory hallucinations and expressed similar doubt about the veracity of the account he'd give he interpreted that as an "ad hom". Then there were a bunch of posters rushing in to his defense to protect him the the cruel evil Aku. I saw no one rushing to the defense of posters like Limbo as they were facing similar replies. Anyone observing the occurrences here without bias can see that there is a clear and blatant double standard being applied.



OK, hold up there. First, you'll have to ask Pixy what he referred to when he mentioned the ad hom, but I didn't have any sense that he was referring to you asking him about hallucinations. I thought he was referring to all the other insults (which are not ad homs really, but that is another issue).

I started this exchange pointing out where I felt you and Malerin were mistaken, plain and simple. This is not an us-against-them issue. I have come to Westprog's defense when I though people were mistakenly abusing him. Limbo's ideas were rightly attacked because he left them vague and poorly defined.

Do we really need to keep up this line of nothingness? I suggest we return to discussing the ideas and not the people.
 
Thats exactly my point. None of you were there to experience it yet there are particular individuals not only expressing certainty that I [the person who experienced the events first hand] am not a credible witness but also that they know better concerning what happened than I do.
Certainly.

That is not skeptical doubt; that is bald presumption.
Not at all. It's psychology and neurology.

Ultimately, no-one is a credible witness. Our brains are not that reliable. Memory is plastic. Memory can change in the simple act of recall. We merge memories with later thoughts and events and then come to recall the modified memory as the original. That's confabulation.

This is established scientific fact, which you have completely ignored no matter how many times it's been pointed out to you.

No one is attacking you in any way. We are pointing out that, like the rest of us, you are human, and need to take into account that your own perceptions and memories are unreliable.

Like I said, I left out particular details of what was discussed specifically because it was of a personal nature. I also have no desire or need to convince anyone to uncritically accept my account; there have been plenty of posters expressing reasonable doubt concerning my story and I've no objection to them, their opinions, or conduct. What I AM objecting to is the certainty being expressed by others that the account I'm giving is inaccurate and the presumption that certain third parties know what really happened better than I.
Essentially, the account is guaranteed to be inaccurate. Doesn't matter who is giving the account. Human memory is not reliable, and subjective experience is particularly problematic.

The reason for these presumptions are obvious: the account, as given, appears to violate certain individuals' preconceptions about reality and, upon the basis of these beliefs, they are vehemently discounting it.
No, this is entirely untrue. Your interpretation of the account violates the entirety of scientific knowledge, and as presented to us is based on no more than an assertion.

As I said, your story does not stand alone; there are plenty of other stories we can compare it to. And in not a single case, ever, in all of history, has there been verifiable information that would support your interpretation.

This is more reminiscent of the behavior of YECs, than of skeptics.
Not remotely.

I also find it very telling that when I questioned PixyMisa about his own auditory hallucinations and expressed similar doubt about the veracity of the account he'd give he interpreted that as an "ad hom".
Again, this is entirely untrue.

I said, in relation to this:
I can recall my own experiences, but I fully expect my recollections to be inexact.

Then you later said:
Oh, and I'm still curious about the content of those hallucinations, PixyMisa. While your memory may be shoddy and your integrity seriously questionable, I'd still like to hear you out
Which is clearly an ad hominem attack.

Then there were a bunch of posters rushing in to his defense to protect him the the cruel evil Aku.
You mean, addressing the faults in your argument?

I saw no one rushing to the defense of posters like Limbo as they were facing similar replies.
Uh, people were addressing the faults in his argument too.

Anyone observing the occurrences here without bias can see that there is a clear and blatant double standard being applied.
Certainly. So you should stop doing that.
 
So is it the case, or is it not, that I have definitive proof that you are making all of this up?

Of course not. [Who here is claiming 'definitive proof' anyway, BTW?]

In any case, if your alleged god were able to tell you what I was doing, or the details of events that transpired in my life last Thursday, and you relayed that information to me accurately I'd consider it definitive proof that the entity you call 'god' is privy to personal information about me.
 
Of course not. [Who here is claiming 'definitive proof' anyway, BTW?]

In any case, if your alleged god were able to tell you what I was doing, or the details of events that transpired in my life last Thursday, and you relayed that information to me accurately I'd consider it definitive proof that the entity you call 'god' is privy to personal information about me.

So wait... are you denying that my experience happened, or saying that it's not an accurate portrayal of reality? On what basis? Is it because my account conflicts with your beliefs?
 
Well, thanks for answering anyway.

I'm no expert on the 1800s state of mind, but I'd think it more likely to hold the thing out and go "I hear so-and-so's voice coming out of this machine."

Anyway, how do either of the above hypotheticals make your point, which seems to be that your hallucination is special while others' were not?

First, the designation of "hallucination" is an added interpretation attributed to my account of hearing a 'voice'; I made no claim of having any hallucination, special or otherwise. Second, what makes the experience so 'special' is that I was in a lucid state at the time, the voice was intelligibly conversant, gave force feedback, and provided information concerning another individual that I'd previously not been privy to.

As to what the relevance of the hypothetical, I was simply drawing a parallel between the reactions of the 19th century scientists in the scenario to what [at the time] would be a seemingly supernatural claim, and the similar responses of some of the posters here to an account of an anomalous experience.
 
Of course not. [Who here is claiming 'definitive proof' anyway, BTW?]

In any case, if your alleged god were able to tell you what I was doing, or the details of events that transpired in my life last Thursday, and you relayed that information to me accurately I'd consider it definitive proof that the entity you call 'god' is privy to personal information about me.

So wait... are you denying that my experience happened, or saying that it's not an accurate portrayal of reality? On what basis? Is it because my account conflicts with your beliefs?

I'm saying that I've uncertainty regarding the claims of your experience. Now, if I proceeded to tell you that I KNOW the nature of your account and fabricated an explanation without any first hand experience of what you're claiming I'd be behaving as a presumptuous ass.
 
He'd report to his colleagues that the device provided information to him of events going on on the other side of town without any wiring or apparent physical connection to the remote location.
There, was that so hard?

Now it's funny that you chose the period of 180 years in the past, and that particular event.

Because in 1831, exactly 180 years ago, Michael Faraday and Joseph Henry were making scientific breakthroughs in the field of electromagnetism, and by 1832, Henry demonstrated electromagnetic effects at a distance of 200 feet and first postulated electromagnetic waves. The connection between electricty and magnetism was first detected and studied by Oersted in 1820.

Charles Wheatstone had already invented a couple of microphones in 1827 - one a physical, not electronic, amplifier, the other a device that turned sound waves into patterns of light.

So the response would actually have been keen interest in studying this phenomenon.
 

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