Crowbot
Thinker
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2006
- Messages
- 146
I'm guessing they challenged you to come here and logically debate with intelligent people. Not mindlessly troll with unintelligent dribble, like you seem to be doing. Oh but keep it up, you're doing a lot to prove to skeptics that religious people arent a bunch of blabbering ignorant idiots...really. Your message is coming through loud and clear!
Sally
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2006
- Messages
- 387
Ericka I believe this was meant for your other thread and trolling does absolutely no good.
If you have a belief stand behind it but challenging others accomplishes nothing.
Some people are here to learn the processes of critical thinking.
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Blue Bubble
Sharper than a thorn
Sally ?
I actually hold out some hope that she's starting out on the road to critical thinking. As for Ericka ... I think there's no hope.
Gr8wight
red-shirted crewman
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
- Messages
- 1,661
Name one "big guy" who is currently, or has in the past been involved with standard channels of research.
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2004
- Messages
- 7,686
Hear! Hear! The purpose of the Challenge is prove that there is nothing paranormal. And it is has been extremely successful at that. But the Challenge has degraded to dealing with nuts and arguing over silly stuff.
JREF should put out standard variables of what will constitute success for claims that depend on probability. I’d say 3 standard deviations from the norm. Do it twice, then you’ve got something.
Meet the standard, or you have nothing. Nut jobs need not apply unless they have something like corporate sponsorship that supports a paranormal claim.
Come on. Get real. If you really have proof of something paranormal., you should probably hit corporations and the news media way before you hit the JREF challenge. If you can’t get that far with your Ouija board, candle flicker, bent spoon example, then you aren’t going to win the Challenge anyway.
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
One option that could be done is for us to go to forums that have a lot of woo and publicise the challenge. I have done that to two sites. Been banned from both. In one case the ban was lifted, but the site died soon after. I know I chased away several psychics and educated a few people. The other site I have been banned several times (sock puppets). There was no hope there.
We need a top secret forum to educate each other on how to do this properly.
We need a top secret forum to educate each other on how to do this properly.
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 36,388
Well, the first smart move might be to increase the size of the Challenge Prize. A mio just doesn't cut the mustard any more - make it ten. Extreme Atheists are good for at least a couple.
Instead of having $1M in bonds held by a bank somewhere, part of the "new proactivity" could be duplicating EA's association with a couple of international bookmakers. Or is that just too obvious?
Instead of having $1M in bonds held by a bank somewhere, part of the "new proactivity" could be duplicating EA's association with a couple of international bookmakers. Or is that just too obvious?
I have a guess about what "pro-active" means.
I think it'd be reasonable for Randi to abandon the "open" challenge altogether. The whole point of the million dollars was, as I see it, a) to draw out professional charlatans and take away their obfuscation and excuses, and b) to put a big, public, flashy face on skepticism. The way I've seen the challenge proceed over the last year or two---with Kramer and Jeff muddling through long negotiations with the mentally-ill, the ill-informed, and idle fooling-around teenagers---hardly seems to advance any of these goals.
A nice way to proceed might be to have---in addition to ongoing, "proactive" needling of public charlatans, "Grand Challenge Days" for the man-on-the-street. Randi might set the rules---most people, after all, fall into three or four simple types of test---and invite open applications, for annual competitions. Test dowsers one year, astrologers/readers the next year, and ESP applicants the following year. A single test protocol could be announced; all applicants could be invited to show up at the same place, or he could take the show on the road. It'd be great publicity---both in the educational "Look, everyone, ESP doesn't exist" mode, and in the anti-charlatan "Sylvia, dozens of psychics have agreed to next weeks' simple test: why won't you?" mode.
This would exclude the one-of-a-kind cases---the "egg detector", the "I materialize bits of trash by rail lines"---and people put off by the travel. And it presumably means less entertainment in the forums. But I can see it appealing to JREF, and carrying out its mission better than the status quo. Heck, taking the Challenge on the road would be a great reality show. "American Psychic". "America's Next Top Dowser".
I think it'd be reasonable for Randi to abandon the "open" challenge altogether. The whole point of the million dollars was, as I see it, a) to draw out professional charlatans and take away their obfuscation and excuses, and b) to put a big, public, flashy face on skepticism. The way I've seen the challenge proceed over the last year or two---with Kramer and Jeff muddling through long negotiations with the mentally-ill, the ill-informed, and idle fooling-around teenagers---hardly seems to advance any of these goals.
A nice way to proceed might be to have---in addition to ongoing, "proactive" needling of public charlatans, "Grand Challenge Days" for the man-on-the-street. Randi might set the rules---most people, after all, fall into three or four simple types of test---and invite open applications, for annual competitions. Test dowsers one year, astrologers/readers the next year, and ESP applicants the following year. A single test protocol could be announced; all applicants could be invited to show up at the same place, or he could take the show on the road. It'd be great publicity---both in the educational "Look, everyone, ESP doesn't exist" mode, and in the anti-charlatan "Sylvia, dozens of psychics have agreed to next weeks' simple test: why won't you?" mode.
This would exclude the one-of-a-kind cases---the "egg detector", the "I materialize bits of trash by rail lines"---and people put off by the travel. And it presumably means less entertainment in the forums. But I can see it appealing to JREF, and carrying out its mission better than the status quo. Heck, taking the Challenge on the road would be a great reality show. "American Psychic". "America's Next Top Dowser".
Which is incidently a good reason for not taking the challenge, any challenge, in the first place.
Verde
Muse
And by the way - that podcast is awesome! What a fascinating discussion!
Sometimes I feel that I am the only person in the universe that doesn't have an iPod. Maybe I should ask one of my children if I can borrow one of their magical devices.
Is there a way that a Luddite like me can participate in this?
Some time back I heard a big whooshing sound. It turned out to be technology flying past me.
SezMe
post-pre-born
NO, it's paradigms so it's the JREF 19.5¢ Challenge.So, it's the JREF 20¢ Challenge now?
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
James has discussed Ben M's idea before. He gets asked 'how often will you award the $1m prize? When the answer is 'never' then the media are no longer interested.
The frauds will always say that it is the challenge that is the fraud not them.
Post 15 (by Loss Leader) has a good idea. However it will take an educated reporter to write a news article for us. Nothing to stop them doing that now.
I only hope the announcement will be soon.
The biggest problem is that we are only a small minority group, the mass media have a vested interest in ignoring us. After all they make heaps of money from woo shows. They will be putting themselves out of a job.
The frauds will always say that it is the challenge that is the fraud not them.
Post 15 (by Loss Leader) has a good idea. However it will take an educated reporter to write a news article for us. Nothing to stop them doing that now.
I only hope the announcement will be soon.
The biggest problem is that we are only a small minority group, the mass media have a vested interest in ignoring us. After all they make heaps of money from woo shows. They will be putting themselves out of a job.
Ericka, can you please give examples for "our forums" and "people like you"?
I find the proposed change to the challenge to be problematic. Apparently, mr. Randi no longer wants to waste his time on the myriad claims by unknown persons, and wants to concentrate on those with a high profile.
This, to me, seems to indicate that the challenge will now be reduced to be a media stunt only. Where we used to be able to argue that the JREF wanted to give the million to anyone who could demonstrate something paranormal, this will no longer be true. The JREF will now only go after pure scam, and leave perceived paranormality behind.
We will no more be able to tell people with outragious claims that they can get a million dollars if they can demonstrate their claim.
I find it a pity, but I can imagine that it is much easier to handle for a reduced JREF, and there will never be any tests at all, because the high profile scammers will stay away from the challenge.
This, to me, seems to indicate that the challenge will now be reduced to be a media stunt only. Where we used to be able to argue that the JREF wanted to give the million to anyone who could demonstrate something paranormal, this will no longer be true. The JREF will now only go after pure scam, and leave perceived paranormality behind.
We will no more be able to tell people with outragious claims that they can get a million dollars if they can demonstrate their claim.
I find it a pity, but I can imagine that it is much easier to handle for a reduced JREF, and there will never be any tests at all, because the high profile scammers will stay away from the challenge.
NobbyNobbs
Gazerbeam's Protege
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2006
- Messages
- 5,617
I disagree with this. Aside from the fact that you can't prove a negative, it seems to me that the purpose of the Challenge is to offer woos an opportunity to either
a) prove their theory scientifically, thereby changing the way we look at the world forever,
or, failing that
b) sit down and shut up, because you've been proven to be a quack.
Rather than setting out to prove there is nothing paranormal, I believe Randi would be delighted if someone came along who could do just that.