Cern and String Theory

[metacristi]

Mark

Would you help me out here? How does this work around the logic in Von Neumann's Chain? I have been struggling with this for some time...

I presume you referred at von Neumann's attempt to prove that hidden variable theories are impossible.These theories are deterministic,openly opposing to the bold claim of Heisenberg and Bohm that standard QM is the most complete description of quantum events possible (implying that quantum events are intrinsically random).Though his first four postulates are valid logically the fifth and the most important in his attempt is not sound.He begins there from the false premise that in hidden variables theories 'identically prepared samples' can be defined exactly as in the usual copenhagenist view.Or they are not identical.Whilst in the copenhagenist view the state vector represent the most we can know about the system in the hidden variables theories this does not hold for there should be added another vector,the so called 'hidden' vector,not known,which accounts for the unique outcome.In other words the vector of state we can calculate using the mathematical formalism of QM is the same but the definition of the initial state implied by hidden variables theories is not identical with that in the copenhagenist view.This invalidate also von Neumann's proof against hidden variables.And indeed no more than 20 years later Bohm would provide a counterexample to von Neumann's proof in the form of a fully causal interpretation the so called Bohm's Interpretation of QM which shows clearly that non local hidden variable theories are feasible and compatible with the predictions of QM.Of course physicists assume also that the standard formalism is correct,so far all experiments support it,and we have vast amount of empirical confirmations.As far as I know there are other mathematical attempts to prove that hidden variables are impossible but there is no general consensus that they really succeeded.Moreover there are mathematical studies (Stapp,sometimes after 1995) which seems to prove that only locality should be blamed for the violation of Bell's inequalities.Basically there is no good reason now to claim that the principle of realism should be abandoned,non local hidden variables theories are still viable.In spite of some problems (Bohm's Interpretation is not Lorentz invariant implying the existence of a sort of ether=privileged system of reference;as of now there is no relativistic theory with hidden variables) neither is there a satisfactory explicit explanation for the spooky action at distance (copenhagenist also interpret the results of Aspect's experiments as proving the existence of some sort of connection at distance).I'm afraid the intrinsic explanation provided by copenhagenists (rather simply accepting that such a spooky connection does exist) and quantum electrodynamics is not enough to make the strong claim that hidden variables theories are not feasible or,even stronger,that hidden variables do not exist.

 

[Prester John]

And is this i"communication" between the particles is instantaneous (ie faster than speed of light))?

So what are the theories for how this occurs ?

 

[Answer]

And is this i"communication" between the particles is instantaneous (ie faster than speed of light))?

So what are the theories for how this occurs ?

oh gee, IT COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE QUANTUM-LEVEL INTERCONNECTEDNESS! NOOOOOO, I DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE SUCH A THING IS POSSIBLE! why! that might prove all these mystics weren't just fooling with us! and we might not be superiorskepticscientists! NOPE! THIS NEEDS TO BE REJECTED WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING IT!

boo hoo, SCIENCE seems to be opposing itself! how is this possible?! SCIENCE CAN NEVER BE WRONG! BUT SCIENCE IS WRONG! oh no! WHAT DO I BELIEVE?!?! i'm so lost.. mr. Randi? are you there? THINK FOR ME PLEASE!!!! I BEG OF YOU!

 

[Mark]

Mark



I presume you referred at von Neumann's attempt to prove that hidden variable theories are impossible.These theories are deterministic,openly opposing to the bold claim of Heisenberg and Bohm that standard QM is the most complete description of quantum events possible (implying that quantum events are intrinsically random).Though his first four postulates are valid logically the fifth and the most important in his attempt is not sound.He begins there from the false premise that in hidden variables theories 'identically prepared samples' can be defined exactly as in the usual copenhagenist view.Or they are not identical.Whilst in the copenhagenist view the state vector represent the most we can know about the system in the hidden variables theories this does not hold for there should be added another vector,the so called 'hidden' vector,not known,which accounts for the unique outcome.In other words the vector of state we can calculate using the mathematical formalism of QM is the same but the definition of the initial state implied by hidden variables theories is not identical with that in the copenhagenist view.This invalidate also von Neumann's proof against hidden variables.And indeed no more than 20 years later Bohm would provide a counterexample to von Neumann's proof in the form of a fully causal interpretation the so called Bohm's Interpretation of QM which shows clearly that non local hidden variable theories are feasible and compatible with the predictions of QM.Of course physicists assume also that the standard formalism is correct,so far all experiments support it,and we have vast amount of empirical confirmations.As far as I know there are other mathematical attempts to prove that hidden variables are impossible but there is no general consensus that they really succeeded.Moreover there are mathematical studies (Stapp,sometimes after 1995) which seems to prove that only locality should be blamed for the violation of Bell's inequalities.Basically there is no good reason now to claim that the principle of realism should be abandoned,non local hidden variables theories are still viable.In spite of some problems (Bohm's Interpretation is not Lorentz invariant implying the existence of a sort of ether=privileged system of reference;as of now there is no relativistic theory with hidden variables) neither is there a satisfactory explicit explanation for the spooky action at distance (copenhagenist also interpret the results of Aspect's experiments as proving the existence of some sort of connection at distance).I'm afraid the intrinsic explanation provided by copenhagenists (rather simply accepting that such a spooky connection does exist) and quantum electrodynamics is not enough to make the strong claim that hidden variables theories are not feasible or,even stronger,that hidden variables do not exist.

Interesting. Of course, I'll need to read through this 2-3 times to get the gist of it!

If I understand you correctly---and to grossly oversimply---it seems attempts to disprove Von Neumann's hypothesis have been inconclusive. Yes?

 

[Answer]

idiot-physicist can only think in Einstein locality. idiot-physicst don't understand that perception is dualistic and THE REAL WORLD IS monistic. idiot-physicist are fooled by their own holographic reality.

 

[metacristi]

The strange correlations observed have been interpreted in various ways.Some interpret them as proving that nature has some superluminal connections which we cannot use to send information with supraluminal velocities.Cramer for example says that ...'it has been experimentally demonstrated that nature arranges the correlations between the polarization of the two photons by some faster-than-light mechanism that violates Einstein's intuitions about the intrinsic locality of all natural processes'.Still in the traditional Copenhagen interpretation there is no clear answer given apart from acknowledging that such correlations are predicted by the standard QM and the observation that the collapse of the wavefunction does not imply any superluminal motion.Anyway such people in general,and from I've seen some argued so even in this thread,do not equate the observed correlations with the existence of a faster than light transmission path used by nature (we cannot use it to send supraluminal information anyway).Bohr himself talked about the fact that particles and the measurement devices constitute an indivisible system and that the process of measurement on one of the particles involved in the Einstein Rosen Podolsky thought experiment constitute a constraint on future predictions about the behavior of the second particle.Not really a clear explanation.That's why many physicists have been dissatisfied with Bohr's explanation and tried (many still try,the problem has not been solved in a sound way yet) to find an explicit theory.There have been also attempts to solve this puzzle within the main view.I've found once (during my wanderings on the net) an interesting proposal here .My opinion (without saying something about the real relevance of the proposed mechanism to our problem) is that the explanation given is not entirely compatible with Bohr's and Heisenberg's positivist view that before measurement particles are in a state of 'potentia'.Not even with the weaker assumption that it is futile to assign real parameters to quantum particles before the measurement.The article is relevant also for some other problems attacked in this thread (the measurement problem in QM for example).I would however be very cautious in what regards the interpretation of the article.While it is good in order to temper the claims of some that surely we are all interconnected and so on the reality is that from known facts we do not have sufficient reasons to claim that the holistic view (implying superluminal connections) cannot be true.

 

[Answer]

Science contradicts itself and is THEREFORE BOTH RIGHT-AND-WRONG. we have reached the limits of Scientific explanation of "Objective Reality" .. in fact, Science has proven that such a thing does not exist! the only answer is MYSTICISM. Science is nothing but a house-of-cards that is easily destroyed when the educated-idiots actually think for theirself and discover that the transcendtal is responsible for the explicate; reality as you perceive if folds out DIRECTLY FROM THE MIND OF GOD.

 

[Answer]

article.While it is good in order to temper the claims of some that surely we are all interconnected and so on the reality is that from known facts we do not have sufficient reasons that the holistic view (implying superluminal connections) cannot be true.

indeed, THEY WILL NEVER PROVE IT NOT TO BE TRUE. all experimentation requires measurement, so they will always be observing the MANIFEST, in which case the UNMANIFEST can never be explained via the Scientific method! they've created a wall of locality that exists in their educated-stupid minds only. discard the scientific method and embrace monistic transcendence and we can explain the nature of our Existence! keep creating idiotic theories that only disprove theirselves is pure stupidity!

 

[Mark]

The strange correlations observed have been interpreted in various ways.Some interpret them as proving that nature has some superluminal connections which we cannot use to send information with supraluminal velocities.Cramer for example says that ...'it has been experimentally demonstrated that nature arranges the correlations between the polarization of the two photons by some faster-than-light mechanism that violates Einstein's intuitions about the intrinsic locality of all natural processes'.Still in the traditional Copenhagen interpretation there is no clear answer given apart from acknowledging that such correlations are predicted by the standard QM and the observation that the collapse of the wavefunction does not imply any superluminal motion.Anyway such people in general,and from I've seen some argued so even in this thread,do not equate the observed correlations with the existence of a faster than light transmission path used by nature (we cannot use it to send supraluminal information anyway).Bohr himself talked about the fact that particles and the measurement devices constitute an indivisible system and that the process of measurement on one of the particles involved in the Einstein Rosen Podolsky thought experiment constitute a constraint on future predictions about the behavior of the second particle.Not really a clear explanation.That's why many physicists have been dissatisfied with Bohr's explanation and tried (many still try,the problem has not been solved in a sound way yet) to find an explicit theory.There have been also attempts to solve this puzzle within the main view.I've found once (during my wanderings on the net) an interesting proposal here .My opinion (without saying something about the real relevance of the proposed mechanism to our problem) is that the explanation given is not entirely compatible with Bohr's and Heisenberg's positivist view that before measurement particles are in a state of 'potentia'.Not even with the weaker assumption that it is futile to assign real parameters to quantum particles before the measurement.The article is relevant also for some other problems attacked in this thread (the measurement problem in QM for example).I would however be very cautious in what regards the interpretation of the article.While it is good in order to temper the claims of some that surely we are all interconnected and so on the reality is that from known facts we do not have sufficient reasons to claim that the holistic view (implying superluminal connections) cannot be true.

I hope this isn't a silly question, but by "supraluminal connections" we are not just talking about faster than light; we are talking about the---for lack of a better term---"ghost in the machine" that collapses what might be into what is, yes? That part of the system that is of it but not part of it (i.e., not made of the same unmanifest quanta).

Or am I lost?

 

[metacristi]

Mark

f I understand you correctly---and to grossly oversimply---it seems attempts to disprove Von Neumann's hypothesis have been inconclusive. Yes?

No,von Neumann's mathematical proof that hidden variables theories are incompatible with the predictions of QM (hence the stronger claim that hidden variables in general do not exist) is inconclusive.Indeed though the deduction is valid logically the truth of the conclusion (that hidden variables theories are impossible) does not follow from the premises (one of the premises is not true) hence the argument is not sound by failing to prove the truth of the conclusion (this is what von Neumann's intended).

 

[Mark]

Mark



No,von Neumann's mathematical proof that hidden variables theories are incompatible with the predictions of QM (hence the stronger claim that hidden variables in general do not exist) is inconclusive.Indeed though the deduction is valid logically the truth of the conclusion (that hidden variables theories are impossible) does not follow from the premises (one of the premises is not true) hence the argument is not sound by failing to prove the truth of the conclusion (this is what von Neumann's intended).

Confused here. Doesn't Von Neumann's Chain indicate that hidden variables must exist? Maybe I just don't understand the terminology (very likely).

 

[Answer]

Quantum mechanics, the centerpiece of modern physics, is misinterpreted as implying that the human mind controls reality and that the universe is one connected whole that cannot be understood by the usual reduction to parts.

However, no compelling argument or evidence requires that quantum mechanics plays a central role in human consciousness or provides instantaneous, holistic connections across the universe. Modern physics, including quantum mechanics, remains completely materialistic and reductionistic while being consistent with all scientific observations.


The apparent holistic, nonlocal behavior of quantum phenomena, as exemplified by a particle's appearing to be in two places at once, can be understood without discarding the commonsense notion of particles following definite paths in space and time or requiring that signals travel faster than the speed of light.


No superluminal motion or signalling has ever been observed, in agreement with the limit set by the theory of relativity. Furthermore, interpretations of quantum effects need not so uproot classical physics, or common sense, as to render them inoperable on all scales-especially the macroscopic scale on which humans function. Newtonian physics, which successfully describes virtually all macroscopic phenomena, follows smoothly as the many-particle limit of quantum mechanics. And common sense continues to apply on the human scale.

educated-idiot contradicts himself. never been observed, no "Scientific" evidence.. how can you observe the unmanifest when observation itself causes manifestation? i can't believe the stupidity of non-circular thinkers.

 

[Donks]

educated-idiot contradicts himself. never been observed, no "Scientific" evidence.. how can you observe the unmanifest when observation itself causes manifestation? i can't believe the stupidity of non-circular thinkers.

In the extracts you posted, where exactly does he contradict himself? I think I'm missing it.

 

[Answer]

In the extracts you posted, where exactly does he contradict himself? I think I'm missing it.

he attempts to disprove the unManifest by pointing out that no Scientific observation or measurement has proven its existence.. when physics itself has shown that OBSERVATION/MEASUREMENT(the same thing, essentially, our brain does the measuring or a physical tool does it for us) causes the implicate to 'unfold' into the explicate holographic reality you see around you. Thus, you can't EVER OBSERVE/MEASURE the UNMANIFEST, only EXPERIENCE it via the non-local non-physical Right-Mind.

 

[metacristi]

I hope this isn't a silly question, but by "supraluminal connections" we are not just talking about faster than light; we are talking about the---for lack of a better term---"ghost in the machine" that collapses what might be into what is, yes? That part of the system that is of it but not part of it (i.e., not made of the same unmanifest quanta).

Not sure I really understood your question.I will try an answer though.Usually the wavefunction packet is understood as being only a simple mathematical tool representing our knowledge about the state of the quantum system.Nothing physical happens in this acception when the wavefunction 'collapse' (a measurement is made) only our knowledge about the system change.Heisenberg was very explicit about this interpretation of the meaning of the vector of state (prior of measurements it is futile to assign real parameters to quantum particles).Still this does not explain the correlations observed in the Aspect experiment.As I've said there is still no clear,satisfactory,explanation yet within the copenhagenist approach.On the other hand the supporters of some other interpretations which hold the same view about the meaning of the wavefunction packet explain the results in the way Cramer did 'that nature arranges the correlations between the polarization of the two photons by some faster-than-light mechanism...'.Finally no one really knows the answer...

 

[metacristi]

Mark

Confused here. Doesn't Von Neumann's Chain indicate that hidden variables must exist? Maybe I just don't understand the terminology (very likely).

No.It's exactly the opposite.Try this link:

http://myst-technology.com/mysmartchannels/public/item/9840?model=grid-content

It is not relevant for the problem of how he demonstrated that hidden variables are impossible but it's enough good to explain what von Neumann intended to prove.And of course underlines very well the dangers to blindly believe that some very well established scientific theories are always true...

 

[Answer]

Not sure I really understood your question.I will try an answer though.Usually the wavefunction packet is understood as being only a simple mathematical tool representing our knowledge about the state of the quantum system.Nothing physical happens in this acception when the wavefunction 'collapse' (a measurement is made) only our knowledge about the system change.Hesienberg was very explicit about this interpretation of the meaning of the vector of state (prior of measurements it is futile to assign real parameters to quantum particles).Still this does not explain the correlations observed in the Aspect experiment.As I've said there is still no clear,satisfactory,explanation yet within the copenhagenist approach.On the other hand the supporters of some other interpretations which hold the same view about the meaning of the wavefunction packet explain the results in the way Cramer did 'that nature arranges the correlations between the polarization of the two photons by some faster-than-light mechanism...'.Finally no one really knows the answer...

or, alternatively, EVERYONE knows the answer. all theories attempt to explain this same thing: Existence. take the "Many-Worlds" theory for example.. it is neither right nor wrong, it's right-wrong. there ARE many-worlds, an unlimited number of "universes".. you are each existing in your own dimension or "world".. and when a conscious being is within your perception your individual worlds collide and you are two people(who are one) experiencing the same dimension. this leads to people experiencing the other person's thoughts; which can be seen when they laugh in unison or complete eachother's sentences or arrive at the same conclusion in close proximity. the two minds work together to interpret quantum totality, exactly as two distributed machines discover that they are working on the same data and will cooperate to increase efficiency.

there is no "correct" interpretation of "what is" and there are only "correct" interpretations of "what is".. no theory is right OR wrong, they are right AND wrong. i can say that you are a single neuron in a massive brain or i can say that you are a single CPU in a distributed super computer. i can make up whatever i want, all of it is TRUTH because the purpose of evolution and humanity is to recognize TRUTH! do we make mistakes? yes and no, they aren't mistakes.. GOD knows that the only way to achieve PERFECTION is to eliminate all possibilities which are IMPERFECT. essentially, all mistake leads to greater perfection. practice makes perfect, an undeniable axiomatic TRUTH.

 

[Suezoled]

I think someone's coming down from being on high...

 

[Mark]

Mark



No.It's exactly the opposite.Try this link:

http://myst-technology.com/mysmartchannels/public/item/9840?model=grid-content

It is not relevant for the problem of how he demonstrated that hidden variables are impossible but it's enough good to explain what von Neumann intended to prove.And of course underlines very well the dangers to blindly believe that some very well established scientific theories are always true...

Interesting article. Thanks!

 

[Upchurch]

he attempts to disprove the unManifest by pointing out that no Scientific observation or measurement has proven its existence.. when physics itself has shown that OBSERVATION/MEASUREMENT(the same thing, essentially, our brain does the measuring or a physical tool does it for us) causes the implicate to 'unfold' into the explicate holographic reality you see around you. Thus, you can't EVER OBSERVE/MEASURE the UNMANIFEST, only EXPERIENCE it via the non-local non-physical Right-Mind.

<table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=4 bgcolor=#333333 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=#333333><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#ffffff size=1>Posted by Upchurch:</font></td></tr><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=black size=2>This post has been reported as spam or maybe trolling.

This post and the past few that I scanned back does not conform to the definition of spam as outlined in the forum rules.

Trolling is a significantly more difficult thing to identify. As a mod, I have no recourse for dealing with trolls nor is it within my jurisdiction to make the decision about who is or is not a troll. I would encourage Answer to be more civil in his posts and I would encourage those who are having trouble dealing with Answer to stop "baiting the troll", as it were.

As always, this decision may be appealed to Hal Bidlack[/i]</font></td></tr></table>