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Cern and String Theory

Gribbin talks of 'particles that were once together in an interaction remain in some sense parts of a single system which responds together to further interactions'.

Ok, taking the polarization experiments. If we simply say that the "observation" takes place when the two particles are split apart, how is this a non-locality? They were local when separated.
 
Dear Answer,

Thank you for ruining what I had hoped to be a great thread on String Theory wherein the people in this forum who have chosen to dedicate their lives to the study of physics could share their thoughts and opinions and maybe help out people like myself who are interested, but not as emersed.

I hope that you decide never to post to the JREF board again.

--Corbin
 
metacristi said:
The empirical rejection of Bells' inequalities by the Aspect experiment of 1982 and later,improved,versions of the experiment (ovelooking the criticisms regarding their validity) count as a falsification of the assumptions made in the premises,therefore one of the premises is not true.The usual interpretation is that the premise postulating that 'local hidden variables exist' is false.Seen from a strictly epistemological point of view I would argue this is the maximum we can reject,indeed there is no proof yet that non local hidden variables cannot exist or that a theory using them is incompatible with the results of the mathematical formalism of QM.Quantum realism is still a feasible possibility.However this is only one of the assumptions in the premises.Copenhagenists for example reject altoghether the premise that hidden variables as whole exist,totally renouncing at the principle of realism.This is acceptable from a logical standpoint but not from an experimental one,as I argued above.Another assumption used in the case of Bells' theorem is that formal logic is a valid way of reasoning even when dealing with quantum phenomena.Have we the right to put it in doubt?I don't think we have this right since it proved very successful before in all domains of science (the hypothetical-deductive method used even in the case of Bell's theorem being at the base of the scientific method),basically we have no reason to think it does not hold in this case.

Finally what proves the result of Aspect experiments outside the interpretation that local hidden variables are incompatible with predictions of standard QM?Aspect himself accept the existence of nonlocality though it does not also imply the possibility of sending information at superluminal velocities.Gribbin talks of 'particles that were once together in an interaction remain in some sense parts of a single system which responds together to further interactions'.Whatever the cause if there is one,the nonlocality is 'an embarassing fact' (as Penrose put it in one of his books) for it seems to imply also that all particles are somehow connected.Gribbin for example even note that 'If everything that ever interacted in the Big Bang maintains its connection with everything it interacted with, then every particle in every star and galaxy that we can see "knows" about the existence of every other particle'.As far as I know this view is not sustained by physicists,there is no good reason now to think that all particles are nonlocally connected,the main view being that interactions with the environment or our measurements cause the collapse of the wavefunction quantum,entanglement being lost.Moreover,as far as I know,there are some tentative explanations (based on the fact that quantum particles are indistinguishable) using quantum field theory showing how nonlocality is possible without implying any superluminal motion (or the intervention of consciousnesses).I will not attempt to citicise the argumentation used (one objection being that it is good to explain the phenomenon for small scales equivalent with a wavelength of a quantum particle),maybe it is true in absolute and we cannot put it in evidence...Finally it is true that there are no good reasons now to think that the holistic view is the unique,inevitable logically and experimentally,alternative.My only observation is that the holistic view is a very serious philosophical proposal,it has a strong logical base in Bohm's Interpretation,which is still a viable alternative.I don't think it would be rational to minimize it.But of course from a strictly epistemological point of view there is no good reason now to claim that human mind is vital for the collapse of the wavefunction or that the strange connection at distance proves the existence of a 'single whole' (or an universal consciousness).

you are all idiots and this is the only intelligent post i've seen thus far. the so-called "Physicist" who refuses to answer a simple question relating to light relativity and the necessity of non-local consciousness-unconsciousness can't seem to grasp top-down thinking. go ahead and ignore the question, mr. "Physicist" ..

epistemological is EDUCATED-STUPIDITY.. what do you think the Bible was talking about with the "Tree Of Knowledge of Good And Evil"? educated-idiots ignore their own history.
 
c0rbin said:
Dear Answer,

Thank you for ruining what I had hoped to be a great thread on String Theory wherein the people in this forum who have chosen to dedicate their lives to the study of physics could share their thoughts and opinions and maybe help out people like myself who are interested, but not as emersed.

I hope that you decide never to post to the JREF board again.

--Corbin

My only observation is that the holistic view is a very serious philosophical proposal,it has a strong logical base in Bohm's Interpretation,which is still a viable alternative.I don't think it would be rational to minimize it

look closely, educated-idiot, i have already exposed you to physics that is obviously beyond the capacity of your small-mind(the mind you've chosen to live in) to comprehend. why not help out yourself, sheep?
 
Answer said:




look closely, educated-idiot, i have already exposed you to physics that is obviously beyond the capacity of your small-mind(the mind you've chosen to live in) to comprehend. why not help out yourself, sheep?

or, you can continue to reject something THAT YOU HAVEN"T EVEN BOTHERED TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND! mr. Physicist is lost in his own pedantic-number-based reality.. doesn't even know his own area of knowledge!
 
jj said:
Gribbin talks of 'particles that were once together in an interaction remain in some sense parts of a single system which responds together to further interactions'.

Ok, taking the polarization experiments. If we simply say that the "observation" takes place when the two particles are split apart, how is this a non-locality? They were local when separated.

they aren't split UNTIL observation takes place!
 
Answer said:


they aren't split UNTIL observation takes place!

you CANNOT THINK BOTTOM-UP WHEN VISUALIZING TOTALITY. the Universe is being created and destroyed with every passing moment!
 
Answer said:


you CANNOT THINK BOTTOM-UP WHEN VISUALIZING TOTALITY. the Universe is being created and destroyed with every passing moment!

man invented Language. if you thought in symbols as the Creator intended your mind would not be in the crippled state you find it.
 
Answer said:


man invented Language. if you thought in symbols as the Creator intended your mind would not be in the crippled state you find it.

.. and nothing would be incomprehensible to you BECAUSE YOU ALREADY KNOW THE TRUTH!
 
metacristi said:
My only observation is that the holistic view is a very serious philosophical proposal,it has a strong logical base in Bohm's Interpretation,which is still a viable alternative.I don't think it would be rational to minimize it.

in my other thread i said that skeptics CAN ONLY DENY that what i speak utter rationality. it is THEM who are being irrational.
 
There's something fundamentally wrong when someone who I have on ignore none-the-less fills an entire page with ".. on ignore.." lines.

Perhaps Answer might have a home within the religion and philsophy community (although I am personally none too sure of that) I think that in this forum his shrill antics are accomplishing nothing but disruption.

I put him on ignore this morning, but it didn't help. Even his "ignored" lines are too many to read the threads sensibly.
 
jj said:
There's something fundamentally wrong when someone who I have on ignore none-the-less fills an entire page with ".. on ignore.." lines.

Perhaps Answer might have a home within the religion and philsophy community (although I am personally none too sure of that) I think that in this forum his shrill antics are accomplishing nothing but disruption.

I put him on ignore this morning, but it didn't help. Even his "ignored" lines are too many to read the threads sensibly.

hahahaha.. the mind of God is perfect and always leads to perfection. think of yourself as a dying breed; an idiot brain cell that is not fit for survival. your type has no choice but to die out and EGO WILL DIE WITH YOU.
 
jj said:
There's something fundamentally wrong when someone who I have on ignore none-the-less fills an entire page with ".. on ignore.." lines.

Heh, I was thinking the same thing.


Could someone explain the virtual particles thing to me?

Doesn't it have something to do with vacuum energy?

So...when you collide two particles , new particles are created out of void?
 
sorgoth said:


Heh, I was thinking the same thing.


Could someone explain the virtual particles thing to me?

Doesn't it have something to do with vacuum energy?

So...when you collide two particles , new particles are created out of void?

educated-idiot, it was not your own thought. all-is-one.

"void".. i've already told you quantum-totality is equivalent to ZERO. YOUR PERCEPTION IS CREATED BY THE COLLISION OF PARTICLES. you all are not true skeptics, how dare you even claim to be so. i have mastered your skepticsciencesuperoritism and now you are an ignorant woo-woo educated-idiot dream-believer. I AM THE ONLY TRUE SKEPTIC.
 
Answer said:


educated-idiot, it was not your own thought. all-is-one.

"void".. i've already told you quantum-totality is equivalent to ZERO. YOUR PERCEPTION IS CREATED BY THE COLLISION OF PARTICLES. you all are not true skeptics, how dare you even claim to be so. i have mastered your skepticsciencesuperoritism and now you are an ignorant woo-woo educated-idiot dream-believer. I AM THE ONLY TRUE SKEPTIC.

.. and YOUR PERCEPTION CREATES THE COLLISION OF PARTICLES. go ahead and disprove me foolish believers, SCIENCE is the only Truth.
 
My layman's explanation of virtual particles:

According to quantum theory, the vacuum contains something called zero point energy and is in a constant state of flux. This flux manifests as pairs of particles and their corresponding anti-particles that are constantly appearing and annihilating themselves so quickly that, under normal circumstances, they have no effect on ‘real’ particles (hence the term ‘virtual’). Virtual particles can have a real effect (in theory) under certain conditions. For instance, if they form near the event horizon of a black hole, one particle in the pair can fall in the black hole and the other escape as a non virtual particle to produce Hawking radiation.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/BlackHoles/hawking.html

They are also considered to be responsible for the Casmir effect which is an attractive force between two parallel plates when they are close to each other:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/casimir.html

They can also theoretically be detected as real radiation in an accelerating frame (Unruh radiation).

http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog17/node8.html

And according to Tez’s earlier post, they apparently play a role in the generation of particle sprays in a collider. If you want to know more you’ll have to ask Tez or Stimpson J. Cat or someone who understands this better than me.
 
espritch said:
My layman's explanation of virtual particles:

According to quantum theory, the vacuum contains something called zero point energy and is in a constant state of flux. This flux manifests as pairs of particles and their corresponding anti-particles that are constantly appearing and annihilating themselves so quickly that, under normal circumstances, they have no effect on ‘real’ particles (hence the term ‘virtual’). Virtual particles can have a real effect (in theory) under certain conditions. For instance, if they form near the event horizon of a black hole, one particle in the pair can fall in the black hole and the other escape as a non virtual particle to produce Hawking radiation.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/BlackHoles/hawking.html

They are also considered to be responsible for the Casmir effect which is an attractive force between two parallel plates when they are close to each other:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/casimir.html

They can also theoretically be detected as real radiation in an accelerating frame (Unruh radiation).

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/casimir.html

And according to Tez’s earlier post, they apparently play a role in the generation of particle sprays in a collider. If you want to know more you’ll have to ask Tez or Stimpson J. Cat or someone who understands this better than me.

i wouldn't bother refering to foolish believers, they have no understanding of what they are talking about. how could they? they don't understand SCIENCE! thanks for proving me right, espritch..

if any idiot-dream-believers have any questions, the master of scienceskepticsuperiortism is here to elucidate the unknown! don't bother coming to your own conclusions, i'll make your choices for you!
 
jj said:
Gribbin talks of 'particles that were once together in an interaction remain in some sense parts of a single system which responds together to further interactions'.

Ok, taking the polarization experiments. If we simply say that the "observation" takes place when the two particles are split apart, how is this a non-locality? They were local when separated.

They were local when separated, but it doesnt suffice to explain the correlation in the observations.

Heres a simple example. You (JJ) and a friend (KK) - the particles - are separated, and supposedly unable to communicate. I ask you one of two questions (that I choose at random). I either ask "Whats your favourite color?" or "Whats your favourite food?" Similarly, I have a friend who is going to choose randomly to ask KK one of those two questions.

Perhaps we repeat the game a few times.

I'll know something is fishy if every time my friend and I happen to ask you and KK the same question you give the same answer, but every time we ask you different questions you give different answers. The point is - how do you and KK know whether my friend and I are asking the same question or not, since we're making the choice randomly once you and KK are already separated???

Thats the essence of the nonlocality we see in QM....
 
jj said:
Tez -

That's interesting, you basically modify the probabilities of space by doing something near mass? Is that it?

An interesting idea. Can the various high powered beams be focused that well?

Yeah - basically the presence of the "background" particles changes the properties of the vacuum - much like in the casimir effect.

If the material is sufficiently large and periodic, I did some back of the envelope calculations which suggested the beams didnt need to be focussed too well.
 

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