CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

3point14 said:
I was intrigued to see how long it took someone to work out that it's entirely possible for someone to be posting from outside the US where our interactions with the police don't have quite the same flavour as some of those in the US.
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Pardon me for assuming you live in the same country we're talking about and not *********** Antarctica or something. You could have volunteered that information. Point being I fear for your safety if that's how you'd handle traffic stops as you say.
 
Looking at the cops' cars dashcam footage, the most damming thing is the reaction of the shooter's partner: he doesn't back him up when he starts shouting - instead he moves further away. He doesn't pull his gun, he doesn't cover, he just stands there making it clear that he wants to have nothing to do with the **** his partner is doing.
 
alfaniner said:
Pardon me for assuming you live in the same country we're talking about and not *********** Antarctica or something. You could have volunteered that information. Point being I fear for your safety if that's how you'd handle traffic stops as you say.
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Maybe I just remember 3point14 from before, or that I've been in enough of these "cops attack black person for no good reason" threads to know that the US has a somewhat unique problem among first world countries, but it seemed pretty obvious to me that he wasn't from the US, right from the start.
 
Bad shoot.

Almost all police shootings are justified. This one was not.

Manslaughter.
 
Mumbles said:
Maybe I just remember 3point14 from before, or that I've been in enough of these "cops attack black person for no good reason" threads to know that the US has a somewhat unique problem among first world countries, but it seemed pretty obvious to me that he wasn't from the US, right from the start.
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Yeah, and I think I know exactly what that problem is.
 
alfaniner said:
You could resemble an armed and dangerous criminal, appear to be reaching for something, and get killed. Stay in the car.
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Lets hope they don't look black and thus is unlikely to resemble an "armed and dangerous criminal". If they do happen to be black then not even staying put in your car is necessarily going to save your life, it's up to luck at that point.
 
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Arcade22 said:
Lets hope they don't look black and thus is unlikely to resemble an "armed and dangerous criminal". If they do happen to be black then not even staying put in your car is necessarily going to save your life, it's up to luck at that point.
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And with every trial that results in verdicts like this one's, the cops' sense of confidence that they can do just about anything they want to and go unpunished only increases.

As long as their victims are brown, of course.
 
Dr.Sid said:
Might be because front facing cameras reverse the image, so it acts like mirror, it's easier for people to frame the shots. If she used front facing camera to capture the video, it would be flipped. Some news agencies realized it, and 'deflipped' it.
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I have never taken video using the front camera of a smartphone, but for stills on the phones I have used, the preview is reversed, so it works like a mirror to frame the shot, but the photo when taken is not reversed.
 
Arcade22 said:
Lets hope they don't look black and thus is unlikely to resemble an "armed and dangerous criminal". If they do happen to be black then not even staying put in your car is necessarily going to save your life, it's up to luck at that point.
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"Looking black" is not a prerequisite for resembling an armed and dangerous criminal. As far as I know, a resemblance wasn't even a factor in my story. He apparently just made a wrong move in front of a jumpy officer.
 
alfaniner said:
"Looking black" is not a prerequisite for resembling an armed and dangerous criminal. As far as I know, a resemblance wasn't even a factor in my story. He apparently just made a wrong move in front of a jumpy officer.
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And yet the officer stated under oath that is why he pulled him over. Because he resembled an armed robber because of his "wide nose" (BTW, that means "he was black" in sooper-secret racist talk).

Also, this is heartbreaking.
http://us.cnn.com/2017/06/22/us/diamond-reynolds-daughter-police-car-video/index.html :mad:
 
quadraginta said:
And with every trial that results in verdicts like this one's, the cops' sense of confidence that they can do just about anything they want to and go unpunished only increases.

As long as their victims are brown, of course.
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Do you really think this is what is going through a cops mind in those few seconds when he makes the decision to use a gun?
 
eeyore1954 said:
Do you really think this is what is going through a cops mind in those few seconds when he makes the decision to use a gun?
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I think you're starting too late in the process.

I think, if LEO's were routinely called to account for dubiously justified shootings of innocent people then the whole recruitment, culture and training may well be different.
 
chrispy said:
And yet the officer stated under oath that is why he pulled him over. Because he resembled an armed robber because of his "wide nose" (BTW, that means "he was black" in sooper-secret racist talk).
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Is there variation within the black community in terms of nose width? If so, it isn't necessarily what you're characterizing it as.

If it were, they'd have been just as likely to pull over an 85 year old black grandma who had a thin nose relative to the black average. Because hey, she's black!

I've seen side by side photos of the robber they were looking for and Castile. I don't think it is him, but it's close enough to fully justify thinking it might be the same person. If there's a legitimate issue with the brake lights, combined with that resemblance, the stop is totally legit.

3point14 said:
I think you're starting too late in the process.

I think, if LEO's were routinely called to account for dubiously justified shootings of innocent people then the whole recruitment, culture and training may well be different.
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Or, you know, he got shot because he wouldn't stop moving his hands in a way that looked like he could be going for the gun...

Doesn't that seem like the simpler, more elegant explanation here? You can write your 20 volume literary opus on "systemic this and systemic that" or you can just admit that Castile should've stopped moving his hands, and that Chad Whitesworth would've probably been shot under these circumstances too.
 
If this is the extent of the information we're going to get on this particular incident, then here's my opinion:

The whole thing is nothing short of a tragedy that could have been prevented.
Could the officer have not freaked out and shot? Obviously, yes.
Could Mr. Castille have just quit moving avoided getting shot? Probably, yes.

But the officer is (supposed to be) the professional in this situation, not the driver or CCW holder. I think the determination of whether he is criminally negligent is a subjective one that a jury has answered. Obviously not to the liking of some, but in any case I dont see how this amounts to a murder. There was no intent on the officer's part to go out and kill a guy. He was just trying to do his job, and maybe on a better day it doesnt go down like that. Who knows?

But frankly, I don't see where race is particularly relevant in this discussion. This is not a Mark Furman type who is known to collect Nazi memorabilia some other racist sociopath. The guy is hispanic which kind of falls outside the accepted narrative, and was also quite clearly shaken, disturbed, who knows what else by the incident. Is it possible that Mr. Castille's being black put Mr. Yanez on edge? Sure it's possible. But it's not a fact you could prove.

It's kind of like severe hurricanes being caused by global climate change. You can't point to a particular storm and say "Climate change caused this one" but you can over time attribute a trend in increased storm ferocity to the phenomenon. So I dont know what to say. I think they both seem like good dudes. It's just a ****** situation.
 
Pterodactyl said:
But frankly, I don't see where race is particularly relevant in this discussion. This is not a Mark Furman type who is known to collect Nazi memorabilia some other racist sociopath. The guy is hispanic which kind of falls outside the accepted narrative, and was also quite clearly shaken, disturbed, who knows what else by the incident. Is it possible that Mr. Castille's being black put Mr. Yanez on edge? Sure it's possible. But it's not a fact you could prove.
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The fact that the cop is Hispanic is, yet again, of no importance to the discussion - as I've said many times now, many black people have noted that black cops are even more brutal towards black people than white cops are. It's the massive difference in the way people are treated that's the issue - not just shootings, but stop-and-frisk, random beatings, and so forth - not the race of the police.

As to this particular situation - as we've pointed out, Castile was told to produce his license, and not to produce his gun. He, therefore, reached for his license, at which point the cop panicked, and fired wildly into the car - with one bullet hitting the seat right next to the little girl he supposedly cared about so much. Simply put, I see little reason to think that he, and none of these other cops that are on film shooting and brutalizing black people without cause, is immune to the exact same influences that every other cop is subject to, especially when the actual problem is his shooting wildly into a car where nobody had done anything wrong, and not just his subconscious bias.
 
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