CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

[casebro]

Lesee-Stopped 52 times, CCW from the town he used to live in- were all those stops while carrying, so no probs until this cop? Or stops in the old town before CCW?
Time line?

 

[Ranb]

Anyway, my point is that I now gather the shot man had 52 previous traffic stops to his name, and Ranb describes having been stopped in six states. Just how regularly does the average US driver get pulled over?

Every time I was pulled over it was for a legitimate infraction except for the time the officer thought I was allowing a child under 12 (actually my 40 year old wife) to ride in the front seat.

Ranb

 

[Noztradamus]

Lesee-Stopped 52 times, CCW from the town he used to live in- were all those stops while carrying, so no probs until this cop? Or stops in the old town before CCW?
Time line?

Over a period of 14 years

 

[Noztradamus]

Good try, but "tragic" is unnecessary, and "brought about by the officer" clearly indicates the officer played a major role. But extra points for the use of "presence of a gun" to imply that the gun itself had anything to do with it instead of the cop shooting as soon as the guy said "I have a gun-." Also, penalty for the use of the present tense when a shift to past tense would be justifiable.

7/10, would be involved in a related incident with again.

Reference: McSweeney's Guide to Ambiguous Grammar

Dr Kellerman would be proud

 

[ponderingturtle]

Also, nationwide statistics mean little when responding to a situation where you expect hostility. Whether it is due to reliable information that a suspect might be armed, or an officer's intuition (justified or otherwise), it is impossible, despite any training, to completely remove the human element. Heightened awareness, focus, panic set in differently for individuals.
It is unrealistic to expect robotic sound judgement from all of these people in the heat of the moment.

Police officers are expected to panic and it is the job of the public to keep them calm and not set of their propensity for violence?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Since the claim is about what I think (the sentence starts with "I don't think...") the literal answer is: "I am the evidence."

However, if you mean how do I support my opinion, probably in the same drawer as "most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops". There isn't good evidence about activity that by definition is being covered up.

And you have no evidence for your belief that most cops are good cops.

This article hits what a lot of the problem is.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer

The problem is that police culture puts more emphasis on supporting your fellow officers even if they kill someone that it does on doing the right thing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Correct, but that's not the reasoning the 'fellow travellers' critics are employing. They're talking about how just by being silent and not repudiating everything about the category, one is giving encouragement to others in the category to do morally wrong things. For example, that a Mennonite pacifist (who has already rejected all violence) is still accountable for a Baptist's abortion clinic bombings by not repudiating their shared 'Christianity'.

Kind of like how people want muslims to disavow terrorism just for being muslim. Of course we will never see any officer punished for covering up the actions of their partner who murdered someone. That would be as crazy as prosecuting police caught planting evidence.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Something is seriously wrong when a woman whose partner has just been shot and whose kid is in the back seat is calm, while the person who is supposedly the authority figure and has a drawn gun is screaming like a little girl

We have to expect our cops to panic and be out of control, it is the public's responsibility to calm them down. Failure to do so gets what it deserves. This law abiding gun owner failed to properly account for police panic and died as a result as he clearly deserves.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It was the quantitative part of the claim I was pushing back on. And I guess the scope of the infractions involved. Would they look the other way if their partner didn't polish their boot with an approved brand of polish? Sure, probably 100% of them would.

Would they look the other way if their partner violated a serious law, a life-threating situation? I'm thinking very few would, and there doesn't seem to be compelling evidence to believe otherwise.

And why are all the shootings on video where there are multiple officers who do exactly that not evidence? Find me the case where someone actually reporting their partner for shooting someone and planting evidence instead of it coming out on video.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The anti-gun nutters on this board have finally found themselves a 'gun lover' they can support, what a strange turn of events.

And the gun lovers on this now have to show that someone having a gun is scary and a good reason to freak out and kill the person with the gun. Clearly it is correct to be very afraid of anyone with a CCW licience.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You missed a few.

Tamir Rice - 12 yrs old holding a toy gun Murdered
Walter Scott - fleeing from cop, shot in the back Murdered Cop in this case charged with murder.

Covered for by fellow cops

Laquan McDonald - teen with three inch knife he wasn't threatening anyone with, walking away from cops shot 16 times by a cop who had just arrived on the scene. Cop had to be stopped by other officers when he continued to shoot the lifeless body of the teen.

None of whom felt it necessary to actually report anything wrong happening.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't see anybody saying that (admittedly, I only read through the first page). Everybody in that thread seems to be agreeing that the cop screwed up and panicked and should be in jail.

So why are you implying that people were blaming Jones for the incident or defending the cop? I don't see any of that.

He failed to treat the officer as the panicky violent individual that you have to treat all police officers as, as such he deserves what he had coming and the decorated heroic cop shouldn't be blamed for one little mistake.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

How did you act the first time you shot someone?

How many times do you think this woman has had the person sitting next to her shot and killed? And yet she handles the situation infinitely better than the person who should have been trained to handle high-stress situations.

Yes, killing someone is not something you can entirely prepare for, but don't pretend he couldn't have handled the situation better. And don't pretend that this doesn't show him to be horribly unfit for the job.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I would say that the likelihood of a CCW permit holder out in his car with partner and child is not going to suddenly draw and fire on a police officer.

The cop who killed the driver is going to exaggerate the actions of the driver so as to try and justify his actions to himself and others. Fact is the cop grossly over reacted to a low threat situation, panicked and fired.

But you have to expect the cops to panic and open fire. That is police interactions 101 people seriously.

 

[paulhutch]

I went back and looked at what I was replying to, and yeah, I messed up. I apologize.

My intent was to compare what you posted to that crap site Conservative Treehouse, who I absolutely do put on the same level as Birth of a Nation. But that didn't come through.

Thank You. I understand emotions will run high in these types of threads and mistakes will happen.

 

[AdamSK]

He failed to treat the officer as the panicky violent individual that you have to treat all police officers as, as such he deserves what he had coming and the decorated heroic cop shouldn't be blamed for one little mistake.

So in answer to my question "who is saying this" your response is "nobody is saying this, it's a pure straw man."

Yes?

 

[ponderingturtle]

So in answer to my question "who is saying this" your response is "nobody is saying this, it's a pure straw man."

Yes?

That is how many people are advising people treat police officers at all times, as the violent unstable people so many of them clearly are. He failed to do that, so he deserves what he got just like in the case in the OP.

 

[AdamSK]

That is how many people are advising people treat police officers at all times,

So, again, you claimed that people were defending the cop in the other thread. When asked to back up your claim, you ignore the request. Repeatedly. Is that right?

 

[ponderingturtle]

So, again, you claimed that people were defending the cop in the other thread. When asked to back up your claim, you ignore the request. Repeatedly. Is that right?

I am applying peoples logic toward this victim to the victim of that shooting. The logic should clearly hold if it has value.

 

[AdamSK]

To refresh everyone's memory, here was your post:

But what did Mr. Jones do wrong to cause this to happen? He really should have done things differently and not gotten shot I am sure. Just go back to the thread here from the time that happened.

[URL="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283366]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283366[/URL]

You depicted this as a thread where Jones was clearly an innocent victim but everyone was still blaming him. And yet, nobody did so, in that thread or here. Right?