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Castro says "Cuban model of Communism doesn't work"

I didn't know you were looking for actual reasons. OK, here is a start. Thanks to the oppression in the Soviet system, the economy of said system was having trouble competing with the West (BTW, that's not just my view it's, Gorbachev's), it was making the economy inefficient. So Gorbachev decided to loosen the reins a bit and allow more freedom. What Gorbachev didn't understand is that while the oppression made the system inefficient, it also made it possible. So the people now had the freedom to complain and a lot to complain about. This led to a degenerating power structure that climaxed with the failed military coup attempt in 1991. In the end, the system fell of its weight.

And how does the Soviet system translate to the Cuban system? You seem to be implying some level of inevitability-- and there was, but for a reason you seem to be avoiding or ignoring-- of the Soviet dominance of influence over the Cuban economic governance. You bring your narrative right up to it, but then avoid addressing how the embargo and subsequent economic sanctions against Cuba by the United States gave Cuba no other choice but to rely more heavily on Soviet influence.

There's by no means some simple equation of events that made the situation clean and clear-cut-- this is the mistake that those who are trying to demonize the United States often make when addressing the subject-- but to ignore the fact that pretty much all of the US policy toward Cuba was geared toward forcing it to fail under its own weight sells the US role in this Cold War 'battleground' far too short from a historical perspective. The long and short of it, though, is that Cuba's economy isn't failing because of some as-yet-undefined inherent nature of communism. Cuba could have chosen any number of economic models and still be in a similar or the same predicament. Cuba's failure was in setting itself up as an immediate and hostile enemy to a huge nation that it relied on immensely for its economic prosperity (the US). From the point where Eisenhower cut diplomatic ties (Castro's fault) to the embargoes that followed under Kennedy to the acceptance of refugees from Cuba into the US if they could manage to touch ground on US soil (under Reagan), Castro repeatedly positioned himself as the enemy of his country's best source of revenue-- and each US administration has known that, which is why the embargoes were continued (which I disagree with, but that's another argument). That is what has led to the failure of Cuba's economy, not some inherent property of communism.

If you are going to make a statement like that, you should back it up. Where in my narrative is the mistake? Was the USSR not a powerful, technologically advanced nation? Did it not have the ability for space flight and the manufacturing nuclear weapons? Did it not have the military power to threaten the West? Exactly what part is "rhetoric"?

Your mistake is assuming the implied threat matched the real threat. Yes, the USSR had technology but to call the nation advanced is a bit of a stretch-- the majority of people in the nation had little or no access to the technology, quite the opposite of the West. It sure did have the ability to get to space and manufacture nuclear weapons-- but you seem to forget just how intricately those two things are tied together, since the whole purpose for the space program in both the US and USSR was to develop more and more effective ICBMs. Haha, no, the USSR military didn't have quite the power to threaten the West as is commonly attributed to it. The Soviets could no more mount an offensive on the continental US than the US could mount an offensive into Russia; Poland and East Germany were about as far as the Soviet arm could reach without losing grip due to the European resistance to its totalitarian structure (they'd had enough with the Nazis, thankyouverymuch); and had the USSR not had the resources of China to go along with its own resources, Eastern Asian influence would have suffered even more problems than it did in influence. By the late 1970's the USSR was mostly running on fumes, and surely Reagan knew this as he out-spent the USSR into the ground militarily while simultaneously shaking hands and helping to usher Mickey-Dees into Moscow.

Basically, the USSR was more a threat in the couple of decades following WWII and that period of actual threat carried the rhetoric of the implied danger for nearly three decades after. The degree of actual threat is somewhat debatable depending on your sources and how you wish to define "threat," but by the end of the 1960's the USSR had pretty much hit a plateau and by the late 1970's they were already close to breaking bank. If anything, the remnants of the USSR-- who are running many of the former Soviet Bloc states currently-- are now more imminently dangerous than the USSR was as a single entity in the 1980's, if only because they're more fractured, less focused, and yet still nuclear armed (even if those arms are technically Russia's).
 
His comment implies that it once worked.

For him it did.


Maybe he's trying to get into political Heaven by spurring the inevitable switch to a more freedom-based capitalism. In this way, Cuban people won't be peeing on statues of him for all eternity?
 
Yes, the USSR had technology but to call the nation advanced is a bit of a stretch

So you really do think they are a bunch of backward, stupid, ignorant people incapable of seeing the glory of the system they walked away from. Got it, thanks.
 
More on Castro's foibles...

One of the biggest things about Castro is something he actually shares with the more popular names in the Tea Party movement-- really skilled at getting folks all fired up and angry, really bad at thinking things through to consequences. For Castro the first big example of this is in assuming that the opulence of the Batista regime was somehow inherent to Cuba and not due to money from the "imperialist" (according to Castro) United States. However, the US owned most of the oil refineries. The hotels, and various valuable real estate was owned by US companies and individuals, or were owned by other non-Cuban entities. After taking control of the nation Castro seemed to think that the same money flowing in from these sources to Batista would equally flow to his regime. He was, of course, quite wrong. Eventually Castro responded by taking over these sources, which is another example of his not thinking things through. Refineries aren't cheap to run from scratch, and when the US blocked tourism a huge revenue stream to the tourism resources suffered greatly. Even when Reagan offered the sanctuary of citizenship to Cubans who fled to America's shores, Castro made the stupid decision to go ahead and encourage the mass exodus of people instead of trying something like diplomacy-- the "never surrender ideals and ideology" crowd hates diplomacy-- to encourage folks to stay. Cuba lost a great deal of its middle class, its educated folks, and the general "brain trust" of the population that contributes to innovation and reform because Castro has consistently been dead-set on putting rhetoric and anger before calculation and diplomacy.

And again, this isn't something inherent to communism because it's quite prevalent in the mindset of the populist movement opposing government and the "Washington Elite" in the United States today. If anything, the most likely "ism" that's at fault for Castro's regime failure would be populism and not communism.
 
So you really do think they are a bunch of backward, stupid, ignorant people incapable of seeing the glory of the system they walked away from. Got it, thanks.

strawman.jpg


I realize putting words in my mouth is easier to maintain your skewed view of history, but even in the text of mine you've quote-mined you're not going to be able to squeeze your strawman out without making a crap-ton of assumptions that the rest of the paragraph you've (apparently) ignored pretty much contradicts.
 
BTW, thanks for ignoring my main point about Cuba. The fact is, the country has access to whatever it needs or wants. During the time they played giant aircraft carrier for the USSR, they had even better access. If Castro had wanted to actually create a viable economy instead of playing romantic world revolutionary, he could have done it. He didn't, so it didn't happen.
 
Again, you are the person saying they aren't really advanced. You are the one saying some are reconsidering. I made an inference based on your words.
 
BTW, thanks for ignoring my main point about Cuba. The fact is, the country has access to whatever it needs or wants.

Again, your own linked source contradicted you, and you're still making this claim. I did address this claim of yours already, and WildCat decided to derail my response to you. I pointed out where your own link contradicted what you were saying, and you've still provided no evidence that Cuba had "access to whatever it needs or wants" at any point. Were that true Cuba wouldn't have seen mass migrations over the decades by the middle class.
 
Again, you are the person saying they aren't really advanced. You are the one saying some are reconsidering. I made an inference based on your words.

No, you isolated a portion of a larger sentence and built some fallacious assumed statement from it. Do I have to repeat myself?
 
Do you believe the USSR was backward?

No, and I never once even alluded to that. Such an accusation is completely imaginary on your part. Please go back and actually read everything I wrote in that paragraph, for cryin out loud.
 
So if they weren't backward, how does that relate to the "if a communist nation fails, it's because the nation was poor to begin with" notion?
 
In case you are missing my point. The USSR was a super power with a first world economy. They could create just about any kind of technology anyone else could, they had a well educated populous, they had natural resources in plenty, and they could project power anywhere in the world. They were not "poor" by any measure you could thin k of. Yet the system failed (as in did not last). That is my point.
 
Yeah, I know what your point is, and I'm pointing out that you're claiming the fact that they failed is self-evidenced and thus communism always fails-- which is a circular argument.
 
Castro says he was misinterpreted on Cuban economy

The Associated Press:

"Appearing at the University of Havana on Friday, the 84-year-old ex-president says he meant 'exactly the opposite' of the quote contained in a blog by Atlantic magazine reporter Jeffrey Goldberg."

Oops!


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In case you are missing my point. The USSR was a super power with a first world economy. They could create just about any kind of technology anyone else could, they had a well educated populous, they had natural resources in plenty, and they could project power anywhere in the world. They were not "poor" by any measure you could thin k of. Yet the system failed (as in did not last). That is my point.

The US is going down the same path.
 
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Yeah, I know what your point is, and I'm pointing out that you're claiming the fact that they failed is self-evidenced and thus communism always fails-- which is a circular argument.

Let's see. The first country to use the system, the one that had the system for the longest, the one that had an economy that was of 1st world level, leaves the idea in the dust. Yup, just a coincidence.
 
BTW, what is YOU analysis of what went wrong in the USSR? I offered mine (which you ignored) so what is yours?
 
Let's see. The first country to use the system, the one that had the system for the longest, the one that had an economy that was of 1st world level, leaves the idea in the dust. Yup, just a coincidence.

No, it's a naively simplistic explanation for something that involved more than some political ideology. The reason I've called your rhetoric Cold War indoctrination is because you seem to still be following the line of reasoning that somehow by the 1980's that the USSR was still the same imminent threat to the West that it was in the 1950's.

BTW, what is YOU analysis of what went wrong in the USSR? I offered mine (which you ignored) so what is yours?

How about instead of going too far on this tangent you first address what I've already said about Cuba-- you know, the country the thread began discussing in the first place. You can't even seem to nail that down accurately, so it's best you not get yourself too far in over your head.
 
My point is that Cuba has access to the rest of the world. If it wants oil, technology, or medical supplies, it can get them. During the Cold War, the Cubans had even easier access through their USSR allies. An embargo is not the same as a blockade.

One of the reasons I think the embargo should be lifted is because of this narrative. The Castro regime has used the excuse of the embargo to both cover their own economic incompetence and suppress opposition. I'd like to do the experiment of seeing how the regime does without an embargo.

The embargo should be lifted when all US owned (we paid for it we own it still) property and money is returned to the rightful owners and not a min sooner.
 
Are those goalposts heavy?

Not that your moving of goalposts was very good. Not unless you can provide something better than calling something "ass" as if that's some kind of meaningful descriptor.

But please, continue the tautological game I talked about. You've managed to get almost all the way around the circle now, and should be able to complete it in one more reply.

Maybe you're confused about what "moving the goalposts" means. If I said "Yeah, but how good were communist soccer teams?" that would be moving the goalposts. I pointed out that two of the examples of communist success depended on abandoning communism for market reforms. Then asked how they are good examples. That's not goalpost moving.

Wow, you've really bought into the Cold War rhetoric.

At this point all I'm going to be doing is pointing out how circular your argument is and you're going to be insisting that it's not. You can't actually provide reasons behind the fall of the Soviet Union and you keep making references that assume its failure was self-evident (because it was communism). That's not actually giving reasons on your part, that's putting forth the failure itself as evidence of itself.

It failed because it didn't work, people got fed up with it and wanted Western freedoms, the US contained the spread of it and sent it bankrupt with an arms race.
 

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