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Castro says "Cuban model of Communism doesn't work"

How about instead of going too far on this tangent you first address what I've already said about Cuba-- you know, the country the thread began discussing in the first place.

The embargo (which should have been lifted years ago) does not apply to anyone but the US. Cuba can buy whatever its little heart desires from other countries. It has deals with China, Spain, Canada, and various other countries. This "they are isolated" stuff is nonsense.

The fact that you won't answer your own question about the USSR is telling.
 
The embargo (which should have been lifted years ago) does not apply to anyone but the US. Cuba can buy whatever its little heart desires from other countries. It has deals with China, Spain, Canada, and various other countries. This "they are isolated" stuff is nonsense.

The fact that you won't answer your own question about the USSR is telling.

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What is it telling you?

Let me ask you something: Do you believe that the USSR was more of a threat or less of a threat in 1981 than it was in 1961, or do you think the threat remained the same? Why do you believe what you do?
 
Maybe you're confused about what "moving the goalposts" means. If I said "Yeah, but how good were communist soccer teams?" that would be moving the goalposts. I pointed out that two of the examples of communist success depended on abandoning communism for market reforms. Then asked how they are good examples. That's not goalpost moving.

Sure it is, because you changed the criteria of what you were asking. And, as has already been pointed out, playing the "no true communist" card as a backpedal.

It failed because it didn't work, people got fed up with it and wanted Western freedoms, the US contained the spread of it and sent it bankrupt with an arms race.

What didn't work and how? What people got fed up? Surely you can't mean the people who were able to vote because the very same people running the government before are still running things.

Really, I could just put together a bingo board of generic Cold War rhetoric statements and you guys would fill it up in about a page or two worth of posts.
 
The threat level of the USSR has nothing to do with why it collapsed. But since you asked, I believe they posed at least as big a threat in 1981 because their military power was intact. They could project power anywhere they wanted and their nuclear stockpile was very much operable. Perhaps you have a different definition of threat though.
 
The threat level of the USSR has nothing to do with why it collapsed.

And this is why I'm calling you naive.

But since you asked, I believe they posed at least as big a threat in 1981 because their military power was intact. They could project power anywhere they wanted and their nuclear stockpile was very much operable. Perhaps you have a different definition of threat though.

Yeah, my definition isn't based on Hollywood movies.

In 1981 the physical size of the Soviet army was massive, but they couldn't focus their strength anywhere. Afghanistan is a testament to this, where the Soviet military attempted for nearly a decade before calling it quits and abandoning much of their equipment where it lay as they left. Had they moved more units from other regions they would have quickly seen the regions from where troops were moved facing unrest, because by 1981 the Soviet Union wasn't even capable of feeding its own people due to funneling all of its money into military in trying to keep up with the United States (who was actually sending tons of grain to the USSR since the 1970's). The Soviet military posed only one tactical threat to the US, and that was the presence of nuclear warheads-- the long-established doctrine of MAD (mutually-assured destruction) and the Warsaw Pact held that threat pretty much in line. From a tactical perspective the USSR could pose no imminent threat to the continental United States by 1981, though not for lack of trying to develop sufficient military engineering-- they certainly made some interesting air superiority fighters.

Interesting is how you seem to assume this had nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union, when in fact this had everything to do with the collapse. The fact that the USSR after 1969 began pumping nearly all of its resources into the military, even to the detriment of the population, left most of the country bankrupt and requiring military backing to keep the peace by the end of the 1970's. Tricky Dick saw the opportunity to undermine the Soviets further by visiting China, which was a diplomatic kick in the nuts to the USSR and forced them to move toward détente with the US. This led ultimately to SALT I and II being signed, further reducing the military threat from the Soviets in the 1970's, while the improved Soviet relations gave the US the opportunity to start shipping food aid over there-- which the Soviets then used to focus even more of their own resources on their military instead of bolstering their populace. By the time the 1980's started the USSR was getting itself embroiled in conflict with Afghanistan, it couldn't turn down the food the US was sending despite the "evil empire" BS Reagan was throwing, and it couldn't afford to move enough of its massive military infrastructure around to finish off the Afghan conflict because member states to the USSR were dealing with antsy populations as well.

So back to the military and what it has to do with all of this. The reason the Soviet government was having so much trouble managing all of these things is because their methodology in most of their military funding and infrastructure was "big, massively big" in every way. The problem is that big is expensive, and when funds were needed they were taken out of the very things that kept government running or people fed or hospitals operational and so on and so forth. This is actually why I find the dismissals of the example that is China to be disingenuous at best, since the Soviet Union drifted just as much away from "true communist" ideals as China did, they simply did so in a much more fascist-totalitarian manner (as opposed to the capitalist-authoritarian China). I won't say that Nixon was the first to notice this, but he was definitely one of the first ones to take advantage of it, and both his and Ford's administrations effectively cut the balls off the main dangers the Soviet Union posed for the United States, while the Afghan War and Glasnost pretty much finished things off. But it was the attempt by the USSR to maintain the facade that they were still the same imminent threat to their enemies long after they'd grown too large to be able to back it up that led to the decline of the Soviet Union, and despite the naive rhetoric that so many people seem to accept without question that decline began shortly after the US beat the Soviets to the moon in a manned ship. Sure, they were massive and had access to all sorts of resources, but all of those resources went into maintaining the facade that the USSR was the biggest, baddest military that could overwhelm its enemies, and by the 1970's that just wasn't so in any real sense, even less so by the 1980's. They couldn't buy their way out of that mess, and Reagan's deficit spending kept them prodded into continuing to spend as well to try to keep up airs, and the clay feet of their deficit spending finally caught up with them.

Overall, the contributing factors to the fall of the Soviet Union should serve as a lesson to the United States or any other world power that exists: careful with deficit spending, which isn't bad to do but there are limits to efficacy; be very aware that having to fight on multiple fronts is going to wear down quickly, so end confrontations fast or risk losing them; in the end, be able to back up your bluster or learn to go the diplomatic route to save face, otherwise you write checks your ass can't cash. None of those things are flaws exclusive to communism, they're exclusive to empires and huge world powers. While the US isn't an empire, they are a world power and many of those cautions apply to the US just as well as they did the USSR, even if the situations aren't identical (and that would be due to the different political and economic make-ups).

I apologize for the tl;dr length of this explanation, but that's about as brief as I can make it and still make sure to cover enough that (provided you read it all and don't just cherrypick) you should have a clear idea of what I'm saying. Keep in mind that this is the short version, because the long version is too long to fit in a post. Suffice to say, though, both versions have nothing to do with "communism always fails because some communist countries have failed and they've failed because they were communist, thus communism always fails" mainly because that kind of reasoning is worse than incorrect, it's willfully ignorant of history.
 
Interesting is how you seem to assume this had nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union, when in fact this had everything to do with the collapse.
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Funny, but I don't remember actually saying that. It certainly helped quicken the pace of the collapse, and many of the military commanders who experienced Afghanistan certainly learned the lesson of "the guys at the top don't really know what they are doing". I think the reluctance of the military on a local level to go along with the attempted coup in 1991 was due to that lesson.
 
How does the collapse of the nUSSR fit into the "they were poor to begin with, that's why they failed" meme? Or is that even the meme in the case of the USSR?
 
Interesting is how you seem to assume this had nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union, when in fact this had everything to do with the collapse.
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Funny, but I don't remember actually saying that.

Here, let me help you remember:
The threat level of the USSR has nothing to do with why it collapsed.

And with that, I'm pretty much done with you. You have no intention of actually reading or responding to anything I say, and instead are simply cherrypicking snippets and trying to build strawmen from them.

You take care.
 
I agree completely, but that goes to my second point, which was that the capitalist nations with high-standards of living during the Cold War already had high standards of living.

We have a lot of really bad test cases. Western Europe, Canada, Australia, and the United States all had high exceptionally high standards of living (based on world standards) for centuries, so it's hard to say that their success proves communism to be a failure.

The Communist nations (even Russia, which was far behind the rest of Europe before the Revolution) started at the bottom and stayed there.

And that's without dealing with countries that suffered because capitalist nations needed to exploit their labor or natural wealth (See East, Middle).

Japan might be the best example, although they had high standards of living and were aggressive capitalists before they were decimated, so a lot of the advantageous cultural, social, and political habits were already in place.

I'm not trying to argue that communism was a success, just that it's unfair to compare a government that began as a peasant revolt against an imperial power and was then carpet bombed by a superpower for a decade, Vietnam, to Australia in order to see which system works better.

The fact that every communist regime immediately crushes civil liberties is enough for me to oppose them, but in the grand battle of the "-isms" I think historical coincidence isn't given enough consideration.

Does one hundred and fifty years from white settlement count as centuries now?
 
Does one hundred and fifty years from white settlement count as centuries now?

I wondered about that too. My thinking is that the poster believes that the settlers inherited the centuries of European advancement by virtue of being from Europe. The fact that the settlers at Plymouth and Jamestown weren't any better off than your average Russian peasant of the same time seems not to have been factored in.
 
Does one hundred and fifty years from white settlement count as centuries now?

I wondered about that too. My thinking is that the poster believes that the settlers inherited the centuries of European advancement by virtue of being from Europe. The fact that the settlers at Plymouth and Jamestown weren't any better off than your average Russian peasant of the same time seems not to have been factored in.

No detail too small for the nitpickers.

Australia established a tradition of stable bureaucracy and democratic institutions as well as a high standard of living beginning in the late 18th century. Like the United States, they inhereted centuries old legal traditions. Australia didn't fight any brutal civil wars to establish their government. Hell, they didn't have to fight a war of independence.

Obviously life was tough for initial settlers, but compared to what Vietnam had to go through or Cuba or China or any other country you want to call "communist," it was a cake-walk.

You can complain about the specificity of my time frame if you want, but are you seriously arguing that Australia began in a similar state to say, North Korea?

Once again, the capitalist democracies after WWII were established, high-functioning nations. The communist countries after WWII, arguably with the exception of Russia, were not. It shouldn't be surprising, then, that the nations that were already successful and boasted high standards of living stayed that way while poor colonies the managed popular revolts (Cuba, Laos, Vietnam...) stayed poor.

We can argue about how the high-functioning nations became that way in the first place, but my only point is that declaring "communism" to be a failure based on the test cases of the 20th century isn't the most compelling case.

I consider it a failure because without exception communist governments brutally repressed their population, not because Laos didn't become a first world nation.
 
Obviously life was tough for initial settlers, but compared to what Vietnam had to go through or Cuba or China or any other country you want to call "communist," it was a cake-walk.

At least 2 of those three had a very high level of culture a couple of thousand years before the pilgrims landed at Plymouth rock. We are not dealing with stone age tribes here.
 
As to the civil war part, you might want to check American History 1860-1865.
 
At least 2 of those three had a very high level of culture a couple of thousand years before the pilgrims landed at Plymouth rock. We are not dealing with stone age tribes here.

Noted. No argument even remotely attempting to defend the notion that 20th century capitalist nations and 20th century communist nations started on relatively equal footing.

What's now Iraq used to be the most civilized, powerful are in the world. I guess we can guage the success of democracy by how that nation fares.

Let's compare Iraq and Afghanistan with China and Vietnam over the next few decades. We will decide whether democracy or communism is better based on the standards of these nations after a quarter century.

As to the civil war part, you might want to check American History 1860-1865.

You called me out for making a mistake about Australia. I responded by discussing Australia. At no point did I even remotely imply that there was no civil war in the United States. Are you just trying to be snarky or are you actually interested in having a conversation about this?
 
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If you want to use WW2 as your starting point, you will have to explain West Germany verses East Germany. It's the same country, same history, and same people. The only difference was system of government. Or North Korea and South Korea. Same deal, both had the same people, same history, and were in the same war.
 

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