Caster Semenya should not be subject to testes

[Giz]

Self identification, social classification.

Wow, that trumps biology? So do you think that a pre-op transvestite should be able to compete as a female?

The IOC have taken the position that it is unfair for males and females to compete. (and I think that's due to hormonal differences). It may or may not be unfair that other biological advantages (cf Phelps) are ignored while gender is controlled for... but that is how it is at the moment.

My sympaties to Semenya.

 

[rockinkt]

Tell me, were you happy with the East German "female" athetes winning Gold Medals in the 1970's?

What about Babe Didrikson Zaharias?
I remember studying her case in an ethics course at university in the 1970's. Her Husband stated after her death that she was a hermaphrodite - but the great US propaganda machine seems to have effectively wiped out any reference to that!

She may have had great inner beauty - but she was a heck of a lot more man-like than any of the East German Women you are referring to!

 

[Giz]

That being said, I assume (by previous posts) that the IOC has a definition for their classification for women and I question whether Ms. Semenya, if she indeed has no uterus or ovaries, falls into that classification. But then what would you do with a woman who has had a hysterectomy? I don't think it is an easy question.

I'd guess it is a question of how the body has developed (especially through adolesance). Presumably there would be no problem with a woman competing after a hysterectomy. In fact it would also seem fair that a man who had lost his testes in childhood (in a hypothetical accident) would be allowed to compete in the womens events...

 

[ponderingturtle]

To ponderingturtle's point, gender classification is complex and the definition of what makes a woman a woman is many faceted. It is a make up of biological, chemical, physiological, and psychological characteristics that help to define what sex we identify with.

I wasn't even getting into the social mess of gender classification, classifying sex with people with intersex disorders in enough of a mess. Discribing her sex as male is just rediculus, so as I have said that leaves us with either female or freak.

That being said, I assume (by previous posts) that the IOC has a definition for their classification for women and I question whether Ms. Semenya, if she indeed has no uterus or ovaries, falls into that classification. But then what would you do with a woman who has had a hysterectomy? I don't think it is an easy question.

They might not have a formal definition of female. It is one of those things that seems easy until you look at all the intersex conditions.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Wow, that trumps biology? So do you think that a pre-op transvestite should be able to compete as a female?

The IOC have taken the position that it is unfair for males and females to compete. (and I think that's due to hormonal differences). It may or may not be unfair that other biological advantages (cf Phelps) are ignored while gender is controlled for... but that is how it is at the moment.

My sympaties to Semenya.

Her gender is unquestionably female as far as I know, it is her sex that is the issue. The question is really this, do the classifications of male and female encompass everyone or not? She fits far better into a classification of female than male.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'd guess it is a question of how the body has developed (especially through adolesance). Presumably there would be no problem with a woman competing after a hysterectomy. In fact it would also seem fair that a man who had lost his testes in childhood (in a hypothetical accident) would be allowed to compete in the womens events...

What about disease? Can Lance Armstrong compete in womens cycling?

 

[GreyICE]

Wow, that trumps biology? So do you think that a pre-op transvestite should be able to compete as a female?

The IOC have taken the position that it is unfair for males and females to compete. (and I think that's due to hormonal differences). It may or may not be unfair that other biological advantages (cf Phelps) are ignored while gender is controlled for... but that is how it is at the moment.

My sympaties to Semenya.

You MAY want to review the IOC rules again. Semenya is indubidably qualified for female events under them. The organization in question is not the IOC, but the IAAF, which uses a different standard.

The standard of men and women is based on far more and far less than hormones, and one of the reasons the IOC would qualify her as female without question is the vast difficulty they discovered when they convened a scientific study on the matter (they found no single standard, or group of standards, that could fairly and adequately determine gender, so they chose one of the most liberal possible).

As someone noted, under your standard, Lance Armstrong can compete in women's cycling, which seems... poor.

FYI, it seems important to note that the IOC qualifies her as female, as it is one of the foremost bodies in sports, especially international sports, and therefore it seems important to point out that the rules are not as clearcut as the supporters of having her removed from atheletic events under the IAAF would like.

 

[Giz]

As someone noted, under your standard, Lance Armstrong can compete in women's cycling, which seems... poor.

Either I expressed myself poorly or people aren't reading what I said... my 'standard' was; "how has someone developed (since puberty)?"

Lance Armstrong had testicular cancer when aged 25, he had therefore developed normally as a male and should compete as such. If - hypothetically - he had suffered testicular cancer aged 8 and as a result had both testicles removed then maybe (under my 'standard') he should be eligible to compete in the female events...

 

[GreyICE]

Either I expressed myself poorly or people aren't reading what I said... my 'standard' was; "how has someone developed (since puberty)?"

Lance Armstrong had testicular cancer when aged 25, he had therefore developed normally as a male and should compete as such. If - hypothetically - he had suffered testicular cancer aged 8 and as a result had both testicles removed then maybe (under my 'standard') he should be eligible to compete in the female events...

So, you're ignoring the fact that the IOC rules are not quite as you described. Not surprising.

Moving on, your standard seems incredibly vague. Lance Armstrong certainly has continued to develop after puberty, as have all athletes. If we can include post-op transexuals, exclude Semenya, include an 8 year old who loses his testes, bar a 30 year old who lost them at 25, we seem well on our way to developing an ex post facto standard where we just get to ban or include anyone we want. Perhaps you should criticize your own standard for being so easy to misinterpret.

 

[Giz]

Moving on, your standard seems incredibly vague. Lance Armstrong certainly has continued to develop after puberty, as have all athletes. If we can include post-op transexuals, exclude Semenya, include an 8 year old who loses his testes, bar a 30 year old who lost them at 25, we seem well on our way to developing an ex post facto standard where we just get to ban or include anyone we want. Perhaps you should criticize your own standard for being so easy to misinterpret.

Wow, did I say I had created an exhaustive new set of guidelines for International Athletics to use 'as is', or was I posting thoughts on an internet forum…. Hmmm?

And, to respond to what passes as the substance of your post:

If we can include post-op transexuals,
[No, of course we couldn't include them. What gave you that idea?]

exclude Semenya,
[Seems reasonable, if tragic for the girl herself]

include an 8 year old who loses his testes,
[for the sake of argument]

bar a 30 year old who lost them at 25,
[yep]

 

[GreyICE]

Wow, did I say I had created an exhaustive new set of guidelines for International Athletics to use 'as is', or was I posting thoughts on an internet forum…. Hmmm?

And, to respond to what passes as the substance of your post:

If we can include post-op transexuals,
[No, of course we couldn't include them. What gave you that idea?]

The fact that you referenced the International Olympic Committee. Which can and does include them as female.

I'm having a problem, can we start over, because it appears to me that your reference to the IOC was more along the lines of what you think the IOC might do in some parallel universe, rather than what the IOC does in this universe, right now.

exclude Semenya,
[Seems reasonable, if tragic for the girl herself]

include an 8 year old who loses his testes,
[for the sake of argument]

bar a 30 year old who lost them at 25,
[yep]

You'll excuse me if I find your hypothetical standard somewhat... inconsistent. With both IAAF, IOC practices, as well as general logic.

 

[Fnord]

The solution is simple. Eliminate gender-specific segregation in all athletic events. Soon enough, the women involved will be demanding "fairness" in running competitions -- make men carry weights, or set the women's starting line 20% closer to the finish line than the men's.

It's bound to happen.

 

[Audible Click]

Or just make everyone wear high heels for all running competitions.

 

[Fnord]

Me? Running in high heels? Only if Tina Turner would be my coach...

 

[WildCat]

She is not a male. At least be correct, she is either a woman or a freak but certainly not a man.

I disagree. She has testes and no ovaries. She is neither male nor female. She certainly shouldn't be competing against women.

 

[Damien Evans]

Next up, someone will argue that non-disabled people be allowed to compete in the Special Olympics.

Hey, why not let paralyzed people compete in the wheelchair races? Since it's unfair that they can't use their arms they will be allowed to use wheelchairs powered by an internal combustion engine.

Etc etc.

I want one!

 

[Matty1973]

What about Babe Didrikson Zaharias?
I remember studying her case in an ethics course at university in the 1970's. Her Husband stated after her death that she was a hermaphrodite - but the great US propaganda machine seems to have effectively wiped out any reference to that!

Searching Babe Didrikson Zaharias led me to this page from feministblogs.org.

"First of all, we could stop sex segregating sports. Little boys and girls play together when they are younger, but by the time they reach junior high school they are locked into rigidly segregated sports worlds. Many would argue that women are biologically unable to compete with men, but that’s a load of bull. When women are encouraged to compete and socialized into the rigors of training to be competitive athletes, they can compete at the same level as men. Basketball is basketball, and track is track"

Is this a common belief amongst feminists or just the extreme fringes?

 

[timhau]

I certainly hope it's the extreme fringes. It'd be scary if that sort of ideology-over-reality beliefs were common.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Please post their definition, or at least link to it.

I don't have a link, and I don't know the specific definition, although I've seen references to it eslewhere. I'm inferring that there must be a definition, from the fact that there is a test; any test must have a pass/fail criterion, and that criterion is in effect the definition. If there isn't such a pass/fail criterion, and the test is partly subjective, then the governing body seriously needs to address that.

Dave

 

[Fnord]

"First of all, we could stop sex segregating sports. Little boys and girls play together when they are younger, but by the time they reach junior high school they are locked into rigidly segregated sports worlds. Many would argue that women are biologically unable to compete with men, but that’s a load of bull. When women are encouraged to compete and socialized into the rigors of training to be competitive athletes, they can compete at the same level as men. Basketball is basketball, and track is track"

Is this a common belief amongst feminists or just the extreme fringes?

It seems to be more common among women who either can not or will not compete against other women.