Cass Report

[d4m10n]

In post #602, you provided a description of "conversion therapy". This description does not accurately describe either the plaintiff's practice or what the law in question defines.

Suppose a talk therapist did what I described at #602. Would that run afoul of the Colorado law?

 

[Ziggurat]

Suppose a talk therapist did what I described at #602. Would that run afoul of the Colorado law?

Yes.

You seem confused about what I'm objecting to. I'm not claiming that what you described doesn't fall under the classification of "conversion therapy". I'm claiming that a lot of what falls under that classification doesn't match your description. But you didn't present your description as a subset of "conversion therapy". You presented your description as if it covered the whole category. And it absolutely doesn't. In particular, it doesn't describe the past discredited aversion therapy, and it doesn't describe the kind of therapy that the plaintiff in this case offered.

 

[d4m10n]

…it doesn't describe the kind of therapy that the plaintiff in this case offered.

The plaintiff isn't helping females accept their female bodies in lieu of altering their lifestyle to take on a male social role?

 

[Ziggurat]

The plaintiff isn't helping females accept their female bodies in lieu of altering their lifestyle to take on a male social role?

That's not what you said in 602. There are similarities, but the differences matter.

 

[d4m10n]

That's not what you said in 602.

It was a yes/no question.

If "yes" then it's probably worth pursuing why you think I failed to substantively restate my own earlier characterization.

If "no" then we have to chase down more facts on the ground.

 

[Ziggurat]

It was a yes/no question.

It wasn't a relevant question, because you moved the goalpost.

 

[d4m10n]

It wasn't a relevant question, because you moved the goalpost.

Not AFAICT.

If plaintiff is actually helping females accept their female bodies in lieu of altering their lifestyle to take on a male social role, then the plaintiff is doing what I described (in the second of the two descriptions) at #602.

 

[Ziggurat]

Not AFAICT.

That's... kind of the problem.

If plaintiff is actually helping females accept their female bodies

You know you can do that without reference to pregnancy, right? Plus, why are you only talking about females? Neither the law nor the case have any such restriction.

 

[d4m10n]

You know you can do that without reference to pregnancy, right?

I don't claim to know any way to define "female" without referring to the reproductive pathway adapted for turning large gametes into newborns.

Plus, why are you only talking about females?

For the sake of simplicity.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't claim to know any way to define "female" without referring to the reproductive pathway adapted for turning large gametes into newborns.

You weren't defining "female". You were defining "conversion therapy".

For the sake of simplicity.

I don't believe you. I think you were stuck on your Marxist framing, and that doesn't work so well when talking about males and "conversion therapy".

 

[d4m10n]

You weren't defining "female". You were defining "conversion therapy".

It turns out you cannot operationalize gay/lesbian conversion therapy without knowing the sex of your patients.

 

[d4m10n]

I think you were stuck on your Marxist framing...

Don't quit your day job to go into mind reading.

It's easier to focus on females because most of the interesting arguments in this space are produced by gender critical feminists concerned with promoting the interests of females.

 

[Ziggurat]

It turns out you cannot operationalize gay/lesbian conversion therapy without knowing the sex of your patients.

No ◊◊◊◊, Sherlock. That's not relevant to my point. Again, you were not defining sex. You were defining conversion therapy. And "pregnancy" isn't actually any part of how the law defines "conversion therapy".

 

[d4m10n]

Again, you were not defining sex. You were defining conversion therapy.

No, I was characterizing the process of lesbian-to-hetero conversion therapy for female patients in particular.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, I was characterizing the process of leabian conversion therapy for female patients in particular.

And your characterization is wrong. It's only accurate for a subset of "conversion therapy", a subset which your news article link doesn't refer to AND which the defendant doesn't practice.

 

[d4m10n]

It's only accurate for a subset of "conversion therapy"

Yup.

a subset…which the defendant doesn't practice.

The defendant plaintiff helps female-bodied people accept their female bodies and alter their lifestyle so as to live as women, yeah?

 

[Ziggurat]

The defendant plaintiff helps female-bodied people accept their female bodies and alter their lifestyle so as to live as women, yeah?

If that's what they want. But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with pregnancy, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with altering their lifestyle either.

 

[d4m10n]

But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with pregnancy…

It has much to do with having the kind of body which is at risk of pregnancy (female) rather than the kind of body at risk of making someone else pregnant (male).

…it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with altering their lifestyle either.

Plaintiff is helping female patients avoid various & sundry aspects of the FtM transgender lifestyle, from binders and packers to hormone shots and mastectomy.

 

[Ziggurat]

It has much to do with having the kind of body which is at risk of pregnancy (female) rather than the kind of body at risk of making someone else pregnant (male).

Pregnancy may or may not be relevant to the patient.

Plaintiff is helping female patients avoid various & sundry aspects of the FtM transgender lifestyle, from binders and packers to hormone shots.

Avoiding a change isn't the same as changing.

 

[d4m10n]

Pregnancy may or may not be relevant to the patient.

Doesn't matter for my purposes, I'm just sorting the patient pool into two halves.

Avoiding a change isn't the same as changing.

Attending talk therapy sessions to avoid adopting the FtM lifestyle is a lifestyle choice per se, requiring time and effort that would otherwise be spent in other ways.