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Cass Report

Doesn't matter for my purposes, I'm just sorting the patient pool into two halves.
No, you aren't. Your description of what constituted "conversion therapy" was not based on sorting males from females.
Attending talk therapy sessions to avoid adopting the FtM lifestyle is a lifestyle choice per se, requiring time and effort that would otherwise be spent in other ways.
God damn, but you're reaching here.

I'm out. Your pointless attempt at pedantry, which you can't even manage to do well, serve no purpose.
 
Your description of what constituted "conversion therapy" was not based on sorting males from females.
I was addressing conversion therapy specifically for female patients, which required pre-sorting the patients into two bins based on a well-known set of biological adaptations around reproductive capacity.
God damn, but you're reaching here.
Would you rather your minor daughter adopt a gender affirming FtM lifestyle or adopt an attending-talk-therapy-to-accept-my-body lifestyle? If you see a major difference between these two scenarios (gender affirmation vs. body affirmation) then I'm not reaching at all.
 
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Just for the sake of maintaining some degree of topicality, here are the relevant passages from the Cass Report:

11.6 The intent of psychological intervention is not to change the person’s perception of who they are but to work with them to explore their concerns and experiences and help alleviate their distress, regardless of whether they pursue a medical pathway or not. It is harmful to equate this approach to conversion therapy as it may prevent young people from getting the emotional support they deserve.​
11.7 No formal science-based training in psychotherapy, psychology or psychiatry teaches or advocates conversion therapy. If an individual were to carry out such practices they would be acting outside of professional guidance, and this would be a matter for the relevant regulator.​

Seems to me Cass & co. were talking about something a bit different than "conversion therapy" as defined by Colorado legislators, but YMMV.
 
Seems to me Cass & co. were talking about something a bit different than "conversion therapy" as defined by Colorado legislators, but YMMV.
That's rather the point. Colorado law defined "conversion therapy" so broadly it covers exactly what 11.6 of the Cass report describes. Colorado isn't merely equating 11.6 with conversion therapy, they're defining it as such (at least in some cases). But the Cass review is not well suited to addressing this issue. They did not do a review of "conversion therapy" or even define what the term means. That's understandable given that they had a different mission, but as a result the report doesn't have much useful to say about the topic.
 
Perhaps we find ourselves in the wrong thread for discussing ongoing efforts to legalize "conversion therapy" (whether addressed to sexual orientation or gender identity) in the U.S.
 
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(5.5) (a) "CONVERSION THERAPY" MEANS ANY PRACTICE OR TREATMENT BY A LICENSED PHYSICIAN SPECIALIZING IN THE PRACTICE OF PSYCHIATRY THAT ATTEMPTS OR PURPORTS TO CHANGE AN INDIVIDUAL'S SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR GENDER IDENTITY, INCLUDING EFFORTS TO CHANGE BEHAVIORS OR GENDER EXPRESSIONS OR TO ELIMINATE OR REDUCE SEXUAL OR ROMANTIC ATTRACTION OR FEELINGS TOWARD INDIVIDUALS OF
THE SAME SEX.
Meh. When you accept and embrace orwellian language, you end up making orwellian arguments. I expect better from you, d4m10n.
 
If any given mammal never developed down the "reproductive pathway adapted for turning large gametes into newborns" then I'd need to hear an argument for calling them female.
Having a female reproductive system doesn't necessitate pregnancy. It certainly doesn't suggest that the sole value of that individual is having babies.
 
Having a female reproductive system doesn't necessitate pregnancy.
Having a "body [which] is biologically adapted to become pregnant" doesn't necessitate pregnancy, either.
It certainly doesn't suggest that the sole value of that individual is having babies.
Who suggested that? I'm guessing the same people who suggest conversion therapy for lesbians, but I cannot tell what or whom you're getting at here.
 
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Who suggested that? I'm guessing the same people who suggest conversion therapy for lesbians, but I cannot tell what or whom you're getting at here.
Counseling that gets a female to accept that they can never be male counts as conversion therapy. It doesn't actually need to get the female to accept that their body is built for pregnancy in order to accomplish that.

Your definition doesn't match the legal definition.
 
Counseling that gets a female to accept that they can never be male counts as conversion therapy.
Counseling that gets a [person with reproductive adaptations related to becoming pregnant] to accept that they can never be a [person with reproductive adaptations related to making someone else pregnant] counts as conversion therapy.
 
Counseling that gets a [person with reproductive adaptations related to becoming pregnant] to accept that they can never be a [person with reproductive adaptations related to making someone else pregnant] counts as conversion therapy.
That's still not what you said before.
 
Check again.
I did. Multiple times.

You're doing it again. Engaging in your very bad habit of getting fixated on some minor point that you think matters but really doesn't, ignoring what is actually important.

The Colorado law defined "conversion therapy" so broadly that it includes forms of therapy for gender confused patients that do not in any meaningful way resemble the "gay conversion" therapies that have failed in the past. Yet you still want to draw equivalencies based on semantic quibbles. Stop it already.
 
…getting fixated on some minor point that you think matters but really doesn't, ignoring what is actually important.
If you believe what I wrote at #602 doesn't match what I wrote at #652 that's just fine, make the argument instead of pretending I'm fixated on a minor point.

The Colorado law defined "conversion therapy" so broadly that it includes forms of therapy for gender confused patients that do not in any meaningful way resemble the "gay conversion" therapies that have failed in the past.
Disagreed on the lack of any resemblance, of course. The law targets any therapy which helps patients modify their behavior and self-image around what it means to be L, G, B, or T.
 
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d4m10n - are you supporting the law as written, or are you providing your interpretation of what the law seeks to accomplish, or are you steelmanning the assumptions that the law is supposed to address?

I can't tell what you're arguing other than semantics and specific wording.
 
No, I'd say the high court preserved important values by striking it down. Only brought up that law to explain what "conversion therapy" means when you see it in news headlines these days.
Why on earth did you snip the question and only answer negatively to one small portion?

You've put a lot of effort into arguing for what you think conversion therapy means. It comes across very strongly as you supporting the view that therapy intended to help a person gain comfort in their existing sexed body is "conversion therapy" in the same way that therapy intended to turn a person away from their innate sexual attraction.
 

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