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Cass Report

Cass is not perfect and has made at least one disastrous recommendation. However, this is partisan nonsense. In the context of the trans debate the "conversion therapy" that's going on is the conversion of gay boys and lesbian girls into straight "girls" and "boys". And it needs to be stopped, and psychotherapy has a large part to play in that. This dishonest appropriation of a term describing something that was going on many decades ago to apply to not just something else but its direct opposite is typical of how the trans cult operates.

When it comes to medical and surgical treatment it most certainly should be up to professionals to decide what is appropriate and what is not, and that goes double for underage children.
 
Rolfe said:
This dishonest appropriation of a term describing something that was going on many decades ago to apply to not just something else but its direct opposite is typical of how the trans cult operates.
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In gay conversion therapy, a young woman is told to (1) accept that her body is biologically adapted to become pregnant and (2) alter her lifestyle accordingly.

In trans conversion therapy, a young woman is told to (1) accept that her body is biologically adapted to become pregnant and (2) alter her lifestyle accordingly.

The main difference here is that in the first example the young woman is giving up living life under the first letter of "LGBT" and in the second example she is giving up living as the fourth letter.
 
Maybe I'm naive, but that's now how I always thought "conversion therapy" worked. In my imagination, it involved aversion therapy or electric shocks, even corrective rape. I think that possibly the definition has been expanded too far if it includes just talking, although I'm sure some sorts of "just talking" could be harmful - shaming, that kind of thing.

It's just another example of a thing where the definition changes depending on who's using the term, and the argument about it can sometimes end up with people violently disagreeing with other, because they are using different definitions (see "DEI", for example).
 
d4m10n said:
In gay conversion therapy, a young woman is told to (1) accept that her body is biologically adapted to become pregnant and (2) alter her lifestyle accordingly.

In trans conversion therapy, a young woman is told to (1) accept that her body is biologically adapted to become pregnant and (2) alter her lifestyle accordingly.

The main difference here is that in the first example the young woman is giving up living life under the first letter of "LGBT" and in the second example she is giving up living as the fourth letter.
Click to expand...

How long did it take for you to think up that back-to-front upside-down claptrap?

Gay conversion therapy was physical abuse aimed at making same-sex attracted people no longer same-sex attracted. It was aversion therapy straight out of A Clockwork Orange in many cases. It hasn't been a thing since well back into last century.

The transition of children is aimed at making same-sex attracted people into the opposite sex so that they are no longer same-sex attracted. It's also physically abusive.

The trans-rights use of the term "conversion therapy" to describe psychological and psychiatric help aimed at helping young people avoid the physical abuse of "transition" is deeply dishonest, but sadly par for the course from that shower.
 
Rolfe said:
Same article, I think.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2040740080877277625

Or as another commentator put it...

https://twitter.com/x/status/2040556274748715345
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Those numbers are highly misleading. If you want to know the effect of gender reassignment surgery (GR) vs. gender counseling on the need for psychiatric treatment after surgery or counseling, you have to compare the rate of psychiatric treatment in those who underwent GR (GR+) to those who underwent gender counseling (GR–) in groups that had equivalent history of psychiatric treatment before gender surgery or counseling because pre-gender-treatment psychiatric treatment is a predictor of post-gender-treatment psychiatric treatment. Therefore, pre-gender-treatment psychiatric treatment must be controlled in the analysis. The adjusted comparison can be made using the last column of hazard ratios (HR) from Table 4 or Table 5 of the paper (both tables show the same thing). Using the numbers from Table 4, the relative risk of post-gender-treatment psychiatric treatment for GR+ vs. GR– was:

For biological males: 6.1 / 4.8 = 1.27 or, in other words, 27% higher for gender surgery.
For biological females: 4.9 / 4.7 = 1. 04 or, in other words, 4% higher for gender surgery (which would not be statistically significant).

These numbers are still not favorable for gender surgery, but they paint a much less dire picture than the raw numbers reported in the tweets.
 
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d4m10n said:
In gay conversion therapy, a young woman is told to (1) accept that her body is biologically adapted to become pregnant and (2) alter her lifestyle accordingly.

In trans conversion therapy, a young woman is told to (1) accept that her body is biologically adapted to become pregnant and (2) alter her lifestyle accordingly.

The main difference here is that in the first example the young woman is giving up living life under the first letter of "LGBT" and in the second example she is giving up living as the fourth letter.
Click to expand...
I don't think your descriptions of any of these things is accurate. As Rolfe touched on, the "gay conversion" therapy techniques that earned the practice infamy were not really about telling people things. It was aversion therapy through physical abuse. That has no real resemblance to simply discussing and analyzing one's thoughts and feelings, which is what gets labelled as "trans conversion" nowadays.

And the goal of "gay conversion" wasn't simply to alter lifestyle (which is a matter of choice) but to try to change what are essentially instinctual responses. Nor has pregnancy actually got much to do with it. Since much of it was religiously motivated, celibacy (which involves no pregnancy) was an acceptable outcome.
 
Ziggurat said:
As Rolfe touched on, the "gay conversion" therapy techniques that earned the practice infamy were not really about telling people things. It was aversion therapy through physical abuse.
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To be pellucidly clear, I mean "conversion therapy" in the sense that the phrase made the news last week, not in the older sense you describe here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2041221121429623131
 
d4m10n said:
To be pellucidly clear, I mean "conversion therapy" in the sense that the phrase made the news last week, not in the older sense you describe here.
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The "conversion therapy" actually at issue in the case doesn't resemble your description. And your link refers to "discredited practice", but that very much is a reference to the older aversion therapy. That aversion therapy for "gay conversion" has been discredited, but nothing of the sort has happened to talk therapy for people who might feel dysphoria but don't want to transition and would prefer to alleviate that distress through therapy.
 
(5.5) (a) "CONVERSION THERAPY" MEANS ANY PRACTICE OR TREATMENT BY A LICENSED PHYSICIAN SPECIALIZING IN THE PRACTICE OF PSYCHIATRY THAT ATTEMPTS OR PURPORTS TO CHANGE AN INDIVIDUAL'S SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR GENDER IDENTITY, INCLUDING EFFORTS TO CHANGE BEHAVIORS OR GENDER EXPRESSIONS OR TO ELIMINATE OR REDUCE SEXUAL OR ROMANTIC ATTRACTION OR FEELINGS TOWARD INDIVIDUALS OF
THE SAME SEX.
 
d4m10n said:
I know they are a fraction of a percent of the relevant population.
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So what? You aren't dismissing trans people on the basis that they're a small fraction. The existence of nuns still demonstrates the shortcomings of your understanding of "patriarchy".
d4m10n said:
Disagreed.
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On what basis? Where are you getting your information about what that therapy is?
 
d4m10n said:
(5.5) (a) "CONVERSION THERAPY" MEANS ANY PRACTICE OR TREATMENT BY A LICENSED PHYSICIAN SPECIALIZING IN THE PRACTICE OF PSYCHIATRY THAT ATTEMPTS OR PURPORTS TO CHANGE AN INDIVIDUAL'S SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR GENDER IDENTITY, INCLUDING EFFORTS TO CHANGE BEHAVIORS OR GENDER EXPRESSIONS OR TO ELIMINATE OR REDUCE SEXUAL OR ROMANTIC ATTRACTION OR FEELINGS TOWARD INDIVIDUALS OF
THE SAME SEX.
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That's an incredibly broad category, and includes far more than what, as your source describes it, has been "discredited". Note also the complete lack of any reference to biological adaptation or pregnancy, which your own description centered on. Hell, there's no reference to "lifestyle" either. This doesn't support your claim at all.
 
Ziggurat said:
That's an incredibly broad category, and includes far more than what, as your source describes it, has been "discredited".
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I'm not making any claims (right now) about what treatments are discredited, only what counts as "conversion therapy" in recent legal battles.
Ziggurat said:
Note also the complete lack of any reference to biological adaptation or pregnancy, which your own description centered on.
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Social norms designed to get young women to date men (rather than other young women) are layered upon biological adaptations which allow the people enforcing those social norms to eventually enjoy grandchildren. Put in Marxian terms, it's about controlling the means of reproduction.
 
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d4m10n said:
I'm not making any claims (right now) about what treatments are discredited,
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Correct. I am, and you are not contesting that claim. The relevance of what's discredited is your source claiming that the case was about discredited treatments, even though it isn't.
d4m10n said:
only what counts as "conversion therapy" in recent legal battles.
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In post #602, you provided a description of "conversion therapy". This description does not accurately describe either the plaintiff's practice or what the law in question defines.
d4m10n said:
Social norms designed to get young women to date men (rather than other young women) are layered upon biological adaptations which allow the people enforcing those social norms to eventually enjoy grandchildren. Put in Marxian terms, it's about controlling the means of reproduction.
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That there is your mistake. Marx is full of ◊◊◊◊, and thinking in his terms is a bad way to understand the world. I don't think you understand who actually enforces norms on teenagers, particularly when it comes to dating. It's not old people.

But perhaps even more importantly, this has basically nothing to do with the disconnect between your post #602 and the definition of "conversion therapy" provided by the law in question.
 
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