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Cass Report

Pixel42 said:
Wow, people who think Cass is too pro trans. To the trans folk and their supporters on the other forum I belong to, she's practically the Antichrist.
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I've been listening to a radio show for the last 20ish years, in podcast form for most of the time. They routinely read email where folks on both sides of any particular issue attack them for being biased on the other. Basically, everything is a Rorschach test these days.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It's crazy, isn't it?

Hey, you know what? Some people are going to murder even if it's illegal, so we should legalize murder!

Yep, stellar logic right there.
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It is an not uncommon argument on certain issues. I'm dumbfounded every time I hear it.

ETA: folks are generally bad at crafting arguments that appeal to others who don't already agree with them. I'm as bad as anyone else of course.
 
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As a layperson with no particular medical expertise, all I've got is your word against theirs.

You say it is literally impossible, the people charged with drafting clinical practice guidelines say it's standard practice and provide a handy step-by-step guide.
 
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Rolfe said:
What their step-by-step guide describes is not puberty.
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Surely you can appreciate that the phrase "trans puberty" should be taken to refer to the process described in those guidelines, whatever label you prefer to put on it.
 
That's rather different. I can appreciate that "sea horse" doesn't refer to an equine quadruped too, but I'd still be against someone suggesting putting a saddle and bridle on one and riding it.

It would seem that "trans puberty" is to puberty as "trans woman" is to woman.
 
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We all know that the trans brigade refer to going on cross-sex hormones as "going through the right puberty" and I dismiss that just as I dismiss "I'm a biological woman!" from Willyboy. I didn't think Planigale was using it in that sense though
 
d4m10n said:
Surely you can appreciate that the phrase "trans puberty" should be taken to refer to the process described in those guidelines, whatever label you prefer to put on it.
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What I can appreciate is that "trans puberty" connotes a legitimate medical intervention to initiate a transition from one sex to the other in accordance with trans ideology.

It's a term that serves to reassure captured individuals that trans ideology takes a rational and science-based approach to actually transitioning people from the "wrong" sex they were born with, to the "right" sex they think they should be, by means of an an alternative route through pubescence.

The actual, scientific, medically-sound truth is that there is no such thing as a "trans puberty". There is only a sociopathically-motivated derangement of the natural and healthy pubertal development process, that irrevocably damages the victim both physically and psychologically, with no proven commensurate benefit.

Calling it "trans puberty" rather than "deranged puberty" legitimizes trans ideology in the public sphere, rather than repudiating it.

Yes, of course "trans puberty" refers to the process described in those guidelines. It refers to the process using gaslighting terminology that seeks to completely obfuscate what is actually going on in this process. "Trans puberty?" You think, reading the abstract. "Well that's the transphobes told, then. I ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ love science."
 
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theprestige said:
It's a term that serves to reassure captured individuals that trans ideology takes a rational and science-based approach to actually transitioning people from the "wrong" sex they were born with, to the "right" sex they think they should be, by means of an an alternative route through pubescence.
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I haven't really seen "trans puberty" used in the pro-trans literature but they do generally agree that the endocrine treatment pathway is an alternative route through pubescence.
theprestige said:
The actual, scientific, medically-sound truth is that there is no such thing as a "trans puberty"
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I've no idea how to evaluate this as a medical rather than moral claim. Are you saying here that process described in those guidelines doesn't actually cause a number of puberty-like changes with respect to secondary sex characteristics?
 
theprestige said:
Yes, of course "trans puberty" refers to the process described in those guidelines.
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I imagine there were similar guidelines for the process of performing a lobotomy, back when that was considered a legitimate treatment.

theprestige said:
It refers to the process using gaslighting terminology that seeks to completely obfuscate what is actually going on in this process.
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"Surgically induced childhood" appears to have been the equivalent terminology for lobotomy.
 
d4m10n said:
Some citations would be really helpful here, it seems to me that experts disagree.


Scroll down to Table 8 “Protocol Induction of Puberty” to see now they intend to implement the impossible.
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You have cited the 2017 Endocrine society guidelines which were found in the University of York review conducted for Cass to 'lack developmental rigour and transparency' and which were not recommended for practice without modification.
 
d4m10n said:
I haven't really seen "trans puberty" used in the pro-trans literature but they do generally agree that the endocrine treatment pathway is an alternative route through pubescence.

I've no idea how to evaluate this as a medical rather than moral claim. Are you saying here that process described in those guidelines doesn't actually cause a number of puberty-like changes with respect to secondary sex characteristics?
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I think the key issue is that 'trans puberty' is framed in the literature as a puberty of the opposite sex. Triggering secondary sexual characteristics is not the same as natural puberty (there is no evidence that cross-sex hormones produce the same effect on brain development as the hormones produced in natural puberty, for example).
If people choose that option believing they are going through the same process as they would have gone through if born the other sex, they are not giving informed consent.
 
Elaedith said:
I think the key issue is that 'trans puberty' is framed in the literature as a puberty of the opposite sex. Triggering secondary sexual characteristics is not the same as natural puberty (there is no evidence that cross-sex hormones produce the same effect on brain development as the hormones produced in natural puberty, for example).
If people choose that option believing they are going through the same process as they would have gone through if born the other sex, they are not giving informed consent.
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Well explained. If you don't have the organs of the female sex, you can't go through female puberty. Superficial changes to the body caused by cross-sex hormones are not puberty, and claiming that they are is deceptive.
 
Elaedith said:
You have cited the 2017 Endocrine society guidelines which were found in the University of York review conducted for Cass to 'lack developmental rigour and transparency' and which were not recommended for practice without modification.
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I'm not commending them as best practice or calling them a "legitimate treatment" though. I am pointing out that it doesn't make sense to pretend the phrase "trans puberty" doesn't refer to anything real when the endocrinologists tasked with writing the relevant guidelines are literally calling the protocol "induction of puberty" using cross-sex hormones.

Rolfe is welcome to compare the effects of natural puberty with the effects of the artificial process, of course, but this conceptual dereification is unnecessarily confusing. We don't need two sets of phrases for everything under contention here.
 
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Elaedith said:
there is no evidence that cross-sex hormones produce the same effect on brain development as the hormones produced in natural puberty, for example
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People who want to completely ban trans puberty aren't exactly in a position to complain about dearth of evidence, though.
 
You're starting to sound like Thermal. All the expert medical professionals (like the WPATH) say this so it must be right!

It's wildly misleading, indeed deceptive, to call the process of administering cross-sex hormones "trans puberty". I expect it from the trans mob and their allies (including allies in the medical profession), but not from people with actual brain cells between their ears.
 
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If you want to make the argument that the endocrinologists made some incorrect factual claims, you are welcome to do so. From what I've seen, though, you're mostly quibbling about the implicit implications of their preferred terminology.

If they literally led children to believe that artificial "induction of female puberty" would have all the same results as ordinary female puberty, well of course that would be awful… 🤐
 
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