Case Study of a Moron

[Victor Danilchenko]

As I recall, once you take USA out of the picture, there is no significant correlation between firearm homicide rates and ownership rates across all the other countries; which is to say that, statistically, USA is an anomaly, and that USA firearm homicide statistics cannot be construed to say anything useful about the danger of gun ownership.

 

[Occasional Chemist]

well I dont leave without my citizen issued USA Body Armor, you actually leave your home without it?

Actually, there are those (mostly in law enforcement) who think that Joe Citizen should not be allowed to wear that body armor. For example, let's hear what Saluda County (SC) Sheriff Joe Booth has to say on the matter:

"I don't think anyone who is not in law enforcement should own body armor."

 

[LeFevre]

Le Fevre :

Yes, there are plenty of other ways to kill people. Guns are pretty effective though, wouldn't you say?

This sets up a circular argument anyway - if it turns out that the US has a high homicide rate in general you will say that this means that the firearm homicide rate is just a reflection of a high homicide rate in general, and if the US has a low homicide rate in comparison to the firearm homicide rate then you will say that people in the US just use guns instead of other methods.

The figures stand on their own. I do not believe that all of those firearm homicides would have been non-firearm homicides if Americans didn't take their guns to bed with them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/05/04/ncrim04.xml



So the homicide rate in America is 4 or 5 times that in the European countries mentioned.

sure thing there UCE, but that doesnt matter to me. I am a selfish American pig . Well really I am. I am mostly only concerned with myself and my family. I haven't killed anyone (with a firearm ). I dont currently own a gun, but my parents do (and I am very glad for that). When I lived with them, I didn't steal their guns and go on a killing spree.

I guess many (me included) are more interested in our own personal protection. I would rather have the option to call the cops and still have a firearm for a last resort. I accept the dangers that come along with it.


Rock hunting pumas is still fun!

 

[Valmorian]

Yes, there are plenty of other ways to kill people. Guns are pretty effective though, wouldn't you say?

So are vehicles. So are knives. So what?

This sets up a circular argument anyway - if it turns out that the US has a high homicide rate in general you will say that this means that the firearm homicide rate is just a reflection of a high homicide rate in general, and if the US has a low homicide rate in comparison to the firearm homicide rate then you will say that people in the US just use guns instead of other methods.

Don't you think that an assumption of what someone will claim before the fact is a little intellectually dishonest?

The figures stand on their own. I do not believe that all of those firearm homicides would have been non-firearm homicides if Americans didn't take their guns to bed with them.

Why not?

So the homicide rate in America is 4 or 5 times that in the European countries mentioned.

Why the assumption that this has to do with gun control?

 

[shanek]

You would think they would at least study and become experts on the topic of something they feel strongly about.

Probably because the one's I've seen, like John Lott, end up switching sides after they study it.

Can we get _responsible_ _knowledgable_ people to take lead of the gun control movement versus uninformed, ignorant people who have no business pushing for legislation on a topic they know _nothing_ about?

I'd like to see a responsible, knowledgeable gun control advocate in the first place.

From the article:

He claimed handguns in general are specifically designed kill fellow human beings, whereas rifles and shotguns are typically relegated to hunting animals.

In the past five years in my home county, there have been four murders committed with firearms. All of them were with shotguns. There has not been a single handgun murder in this county in at least five years, despite a higher-than-average rate of gun ownership.

According to the 2001 FBI Uniform Crime Reports, of 13,752 total murders, less than half (6,790) were committed with handguns.

In other words, it's not true.

"You don't go out hunting deer with a revolver," Davis said.

Check the sig.

 

[shanek]

UCE: Why don't you include figures from Switzerland? Amazing how gun control advocates always seem to leave that country out...

 

[fishbob]

We Americans like our toys. We don't need 200 mph motorcycles, but we can have them. We don't need 150 mph sports cars, but we can have them. We don't need 60 mph jet boats, or 100 mph snow machines, or hang gliders, or skate boards but we can have them. And we don't need 50 caliber hand guns, but we can have them.

Car wrecks kill 4 or 5 times as many Americans per year than guns. And we like it.

Lung cancer caused by smoking kills even more Americans each year. And we apparently like that too.

I wonder if is even possible to to legislate bans on our toys and remain as free a society as we are.

 

[Richard G]

As a hunter, I'm taking serious offense to these claims that hangun hunting isn't sporting. Get your ass out in the bush with me, and, highlighting a point made previously that handguns are less accurate, get within the 20 yards it takes to accurately bring down a bear. You see, using a hangun means one has to get CLOSER to the game. Hunting bear with a handgun takes alot more guts, and skill than picking them off from over 100 yards with a rifle.

Even more challenging, are the fellows that bow hunt. That is the ultimate test of ones hunting skill.

Arguing over calibre size is stupid. A well placed shot with a .22 is just as lethal as one placed with a .50 cal BMG.

As a result of the freedoms I enjoy here, like no other place in the world, I and my family are safe, even my daughters when I am not home to protect them, I have a relaxing hobby, I can bag free steaks every year, and no corrupt govt. will infringe my liberties without paying a dear price.

The United States will not surrender their arms. We are free, and with freedom comes personal responsibility. You cannot breach the freedoms and rights of everyone because of the irresponsible actions of a few.

That being said, reflect on this:

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty, teeth and keystone under independence. The church, the plow, the prairie wagon and citizens' firearms are indelibly related. From the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that, to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 and 99-100 percent of them by their silence indicate they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence. They deserve a place of honor with all that's good. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour."

George Washington

 

[shanek]

Okay, here's a site which uses the same "logic" as the gun control advocates to "prove" that it's actually a failure to prosecute adultery laws which leads to higher homicide rates.

http://christianparty.net/murdrateworld.htm

As far as I know, this site is serious.

 

[Doubt]

This sets up a circular argument anyway - if it turns out that the US has a high homicide rate in general you will say that this means that the firearm homicide rate is just a reflection of a high homicide rate in general, and if the US has a low homicide rate in comparison to the firearm homicide rate then you will say that people in the US just use guns instead of other methods.

It is necessary to look at the overall homicide rate in order to be known if a society is more or less violent. To look only at gun homicides gets you nowhere since gun are not equally available in all countries. What you are left with is apples and oranges.

If I wanted to kill some one in Japan, would I use a gun? How would I get it? Use a knife instead?

If the US has a higher homicide rate per capita and a higher gun homicide rate per capita, then the gun may play be part of the problem. Not absolute proof, since other factors are involved.

If the US has a lower overall homicide rate per capita, then the guns may be helping prevent some killings. Again, this is not an absolute proof.

UCE,

You assume too much. You looked at a few raw figures that are inflammatory and don't provide a useful measure by themselves. When challenged by Sou, you did look a little closer, but again those numbers only tell us about a homicide rate with little additional context. But when I challenged you, you suddenly decided to not look. Bias problem? You figure that since I am an American that I must be pro-gun? Neither the world nor my view of it are that simple.

The funny thing is I would bet that the per capita homicide rate in the US is probably higher than most countries.

Your approach to reason appears to be as follows:

1.) Look for numbers that appear to support your position.
2.) Don't look any further.

Not very skeptical.

 

[Guest]

UCE: Why don't you include figures from Switzerland? Amazing how gun control advocates always seem to leave that country out...

I didn't have them. I have spent a lot of time working in Swizerland though. It has the lowest crime rate in Europe. Bern is the only European capital where you can leave a car unlocked with a briefcase on the back seat, and come back fully expecting it still to be there.

 

[Occasional Chemist]

Okay, here's a site which uses the same "logic" as the gun control advocates to "prove" that it's actually a failure to prosecute adultery laws which leads to higher homicide rates.

As far as statistics goes, you won't find many particularly good arguments on either side of the gun control fence - mainly because of the number of uncontrolled variables in the data being presented. Whenever politics is involved, you can be sure statistics will be abused.

This site, though, is particularly silly. Good link!

 

[Soubrette]

Just a quick point.

I wasn't challenging Geoff - I genuinely wanted to know more.

I'm ambivalent towards the pro/anti gun issues in the US. I'm happy with our tougher gun laws in the UK

I could change my mind on both though - given convincing information (sorry Richard G - rampaging squirrels ain't convincing enough for me )

Sou

 

[corplinx]

Re: Re: Case Study of a Moron

I believe that rather succinctly gives the reasons its silly to hunt with a revolver, yes.

Look, hunting isn't much of a sport sitting up in a deer stand with a high powered rifle with a scope with enough magnification to see up a deer's nose.

Mind you, I do not hunt, but I have family who do. The harder it is to bag your game, the more sporting it is. This is why bowhunting is considered to be one of the most sporting ways of hunting.

 

[ZeeGerman]

which is to say that, statistically, USA is an anomaly,

I'm completely with you here

Schtonk

Zee

 

[shanek]

I didn't have them. I have spent a lot of time working in Swizerland though. It has the lowest crime rate in Europe. Bern is the only European capital where you can leave a car unlocked with a briefcase on the back seat, and come back fully expecting it still to be there.

And all that, with the highest rate of gun ownership. Imagine...

 

[bjornart]

As I recall, once you take USA out of the picture, there is no significant correlation between firearm homicide rates and ownership rates across all the other countries; which is to say that, statistically, USA is an anomaly, and that USA firearm homicide statistics cannot be construed to say anything useful about the danger of gun ownership.

No, just something useful about being trigger-happy gun freaks.

 

[Guest]

shanek

And all that, with the highest rate of gun ownership. Imagine...

This isn't anything more surprising than Michael Moores comments about Canada. Similar gun availability, quarter the firearm homicide rate. The rate of Americans firearm homicides is not because of the availability of the guns - that just makes it possible. The difference between the US and Canada is the attitude of the person holding the gun. Shoot first. Think later.

 

[Shane Costello]

Undercover Elephant,

You're forgetting that one part of the UK, Northern Ireland, is creaking under the weight of illegal firearms, and despite Tony asking them very nicely, the murder gangs don't want to give them up.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Look, Im not anti-hunting so long as what you shoot is for the pot. But I just cant see how anyone can call it sport.

Sport involves a contest between two roughly equal sides. So until the deer/bear/fox/platypus whatever also get firearms it aint sport to me!