carlson test and debunking randi

[Oualawouzou]

i would like the participants to tell where i got it wrong and where i was vague so i can check my reading skills and know what they expect from astrology

Well, I'll bite.

I am Atlas. I picked #7 as my profile. When I inquired after the resulsts were published, DrKitten informed me my profile was #1.

So, here's "my" profile:

#1

competitive,

No.

but gets too much support from relatives, especially old ones.

I speak to my extended family twice a year. I don't involve myself in my brother and sister's life, and they don't intrude on mine. My parents have disagreed with pretty much every major decision I've made, though they adopted the "we'll support you because you are our child" stance.

So I'd say that's a no.

May be spoiled.

No. I don't expect anything from anybody.

talent for publicity

Terrible salesman, and keep quiet about almost everything.

So, no.

but lacking motivation or ambition due to excessive protection.

Almost a hit. Little ambition, have difficulties motivating myself. No clue about the "excessive protection" bit.

So, let's say a yes for generosity.

should seek friends to escape family influence.

I've had the same friends since high school, and I'm happy that way. I broke out of family influence around the time I entered University. My friends had little, if anything to do with this breaking. Meeting my wife, learning about critical thinking and rhetorics did the job.

So, no.

academic talent,

To a point, I guess. In things I like, sure. In things I dislike, no.

So let's say yes again, for generosity.

cunning and technical.

Oh God, no, no, ten times no. You shouldn't trust me with a thimble, I'd find a way to poke someone's eye out.

Big no.

nice and pleasant,

"Softspoken" is the adjective used most often to describe me, but I give a first impression of being hostile and somewhat haughty.

But let's say yes.

but lacks opportunities for self expression of talents.

Not really. I create these opportunities. I only lack the motivation to follow through.

So I'd class that as a no.

intuitive and wise.

Every day, I think I am. Every following day, I realize I was stupid to think I was the day before, but today, I know I am, for real. Rinse and repeat.

So, no.

Bottom line : two partial "yes", one almost complete "yes", a plethora of "no", including some particularly egregious ones (competitive, spoiled, cunning and technical...).

"My" reading was actually tied with another one as the "worst" description of me among the 7 profiles that were provided. Make of that what you will.

 

[idunno]

drkitten - Merely a observation and suggestion; no need for snidness.

idunno - If you are experienced in “wstern” astrology, why didn’t you choose that path from the start?

because i find chinese more compact, to the point, where wstern astrologers tend to make long dissertations about your personality.

I just did the charts at www.astro.com
Some have a very strong zodiac sign, so the interpretation shouldnt be vague.
the problem with this tests is that participants may pick the right charts because they know the traits of their sun and ascendant signs and will find out quickly if im talking about a G emini person or a Scorpio

 

[Locknar]

Yes, usually believers say « Wow ,how accurate. I cant believe it»
Skeptics say.« All wrong mate»

I’d say that is not accurate wrt skeptics.

The issue is not proving skeptics right/wrong, but rather to test to a protocol that eliminates outside interference, and lets the data/results stand on its own merit.

 

[Locknar]

because i find chinese more compact, to the point, where wstern astrologers tend to make long dissertations about your personality.

Point taken.

[snip]Some have a very strong zodiac sign, so the interpretation shouldnt be vague. the problem with this tests is that participants may pick the right charts because they know the traits of their sun and ascendant signs and will find out quickly if im talking about a Gemini person or a Scorpio

Assuming that the test subjects are unknowledgeable about any specific traits wrt their zodiac sign, would masking it work?

 

[idunno]

Well, I'll bite.

I am Atlas. I picked #7 as my profile. When I inquired after the resulsts were published, DrKitten informed me my profile was #1.

So, here's "my" profile:



No.



I speak to my extended family twice a year. I don't involve myself in my brother and sister's life, and they don't intrude on mine. My parents have disagreed with pretty much every major decision I've made, though they adopted the "we'll support you because you are our child" stance.

So I'd say that's a no.

--IDUNNO: --protective parents usually disagree with our decisions.They supported you so i would classify this one as «Yes»



No. I don't expect anything from anybody.



Terrible salesman, and keep quiet about almost everything.

So, no.



Almost a hit. Little ambition, have difficulties motivating myself. No clue about the "excessive protection" bit.

So, let's say a yes for generosity.

IDUNNO:----this one is typical of too much parent element. The lack of motivation should be duesto the easy life parents give you. You may call it protection or not



I've had the same friends since high school, and I'm happy that way. I broke out of family influence around the time I entered University. My friends had little, if anything to do with this breaking. Meeting my wife, learning about critical thinking and rhetorics did the job.

So, no.

IDUNNO:----A Yes. The friends dont have to be new and people with such chart wanrt to get rid of family as soon as possible



To a point, I guess. In things I like, sure. In things I dislike, no.

So let's say yes again, for generosity.



Oh God, no, no, ten times no. You shouldn't trust me with a thimble, I'd find a way to poke someone's eye out.

Big no.



"Softspoken" is the adjective used most often to describe me, but I give a first impression of being hostile and somewhat haughty.

But let's say yes.



Not really. I create these opportunities. I only lack the motivation to follow through.

So I'd class that as a no.

--IDUNNO:--Another yes. As i mentioned in one chart, when the creative element is in the hidden part of the chart the talents arent visible to the world so we must create the oportunities. I have a similar chart and do that all time, otherwise nobody would know about my artistic skills as i had little oportunity to make them public. Also, we`re often afraid of coming out and show talenyts



Every day, I think I am. Every following day, I realize I was stupid to think I was the day before, but today, I know I am, for real. Rinse and repeat.

So, no.

Bottom line : two partial "yes", one almost complete "yes", a plethora of "no", including some particularly egregious ones (competitive, spoiled, cunning and technical...).

"My" reading was actually tied with another one as the "worst" description of me among the 7 profiles that were provided. Make of that what you will.

Bottom line: Seems i wasnt too clear given the time limitations in a Internet café and you misred some of what i said or maybe i have to explain how the method works

 

[Dan O.]

Astrology itself has already been proven invalid in numerous studies where the personality profiles of thousands of subjects were compared to the astrological charts and found no correlation. There is also no basis behind the workings of astrology, it's just something that somebody made up and found they could make a living at. Astrologers tried for ages to find the magic numbers to keep all the planets in their proper cycles. They were able to get close but we know they could never succeed because the planetary orbits are not controlled by numbers and cycles like gears in a clock but by physics.

 

[idunno]

Point taken.



Assuming that the test subjects are unknowledgeable about any specific traits wrt their zodiac sign, would masking it work?

if they know nothing about astrology then its okay

 

[idunno]

Astrology itself has already been proven invalid in numerous studies where the personality profiles of thousands of subjects were compared to the astrological charts and found no correlation. There is also no basis behind the workings of astrology, it's just something that somebody made up and found they could make a living at. Astrologers tried for ages to find the magic numbers to keep all the planets in their proper cycles. They were able to get close but we know they could never succeed because the planetary orbits are not controlled by numbers and cycles like gears in a clock but by physics.

Chinese astrology has nothing to do with the stars. The word Fortune- telling is more appropriate.

 

[Locknar]

if they know nothing about astrology then its okay

I'd think that is all relative in that, while I have some knowledge base in overall astrology, I don't have a clue as to what specific "traits" my zodiac sign has.

The test subjects would just have to be honest about their knoweldge, or lack of, zodiac sign "trait" wise. While not totally scientific, I'd submit the test subjects word would be good enough in this testing situation. Agree, disagree?

 

[idunno]

I'd think that is all relative in that, while I have some knowledge base in overall astrology, I don't have a clue as to what specific "traits" my zodiac sign has.

Since Atlas has come out with his opinion i take it he should be excluded from the western reading no?

 

[Locknar]

Since Atlas has come out with his opinion i take it he should be excluded from the western reading no?

I'd tend to agree, though that is really up to you (as a participant) and drkitten (as the test organizer) to determin.

 

[drkitten]

Yes, usually believers say « Wow ,how accurate. I cant believe it»
Skeptics say.« All wrong mate»

Yeah. That's actually a problem, if you think about it. My partner, for example, doesn't like airplanes, doesn't understand how they work, and flies white-knuckled gripping my arm all the way until we are back in the terminal and picking up luggage.

But planes still work, even for a non-believer like my partner. The plane doesn't care whether you're a believer or not -- you'll still land in your destination city at exactly the same time.

Penicillin works that way, too. It will cure up a staph infection whether you believe it or not.

If you need to believe in something already in order to convince yourself that it works.... it probably doesn't work.

 

[Mojo]

Since Atlas has come out with his opinion i take it he should be excluded from the western reading no?

I would have thought he'd have to be.

 

[idunno]

Since Atlas has come out with his opinion i take it he should be excluded from the western reading no?

Since Atlas is out heres is an interpretation of his Sun-Moon and ascendant combinations from Astro.com


You have a gift for synthesis, for reducing multiple problems to one concept in your mind. With this power for concentration and unification comes a desire for a position of authority. Your Moon and Sun combination makes you a romantic - not in the sentimental sense, but in the sense that you see yourself as a heroic person. You may feel that you are not bound by the laws and dictates of society. This sense of freedom, too, leads you to adventure and to plunge enthusiastically into many escapades. Your proud carriage and dignity support your self-image, but when your sensitive pride is ruffled, you are resentful. Anger is your first reaction to adverse criticism, but when you have calmed down you see the truth of what has been said.

Outwardly you are gay and have a sunny disposition that warms others. This is especially true in love, and you put your whole heart into your affections. Your trusting nature makes you totally unsuspicious of others. You know you are to be trusted, and you view others in the same light. At the time of your birth the zodiacal sign of Aquarius was ascending in the horizon. Its ruler Uranus is located in the ninth house.

You were born with a natural disposition to be humane, sympathetic, original and refined in your dealings with others. Among your features is the ability to understand human nature in a sympathetic manner. Unfortunately, you do not always act upon your intuitions and may become rationalistic at times when swift and prompt determination is required.

The common Aquarian is good and kindly, but usually led astray by eccentric and bizarre companions.

Your tastes are refined and your discrimination keen. You have a natural inclination toward the esoteric and mystical side of life and you could develop some clairvoyant abilities. Basically you are a lover of freedom; in the realization of this desire you may go to extremes.

Although changeable in appearance, your life is guided by very definite and fixed principles, one of which is a constant demand for personal freedom. In love you are a strange character. You can easily be emotionally attracted to one person and yet unpredictably terminate relationships.

As an inventor you have no rival; your problem is that sometimes you lack the practical ability to implement your creations. Professionally you will be successful in any of the following fields of activity: modern science, electrical work, photography, archaeology, astrology, radio etc.

A great part of your life is going to be geared to travel abroad. On the intellectual plane you are very gifted and exceptionally clever. Intuition is another of your natural gifts. You very often reach the solution to problems in a dramatically swift manner. You are going to be attracted all through your life by the uncommon; strange and unsubstantiated theories hold a special fascination for you.
You have a very airy, intelectual personality as air is very strong in your chart

 

[drkitten]

Since Atlas has come out with his opinion i take it he should be excluded from the western reading no?

Seems reasonable. Alternatively, if you want to insist on a brand-new pack of volunteers with the cellophane still on, that's another alternative (although
that will of course take time to line up).

This is at least partly your protocol and your test. Whatever makes you feel comfortable that will not compromise the integrity of the test....

 

[idunno]

gotta go now, see you soon

 

[idunno]

Seems reasonable. Alternatively, if you want to insist on a brand-new pack of volunteers with the cellophane still on, that's another alternative (although
that will of course take time to line up).

This is at least partly your protocol and your test. Whatever makes you feel comfortable that will not compromise the integrity of the test....

if yo u could find people who dont care if astrology works or not those would be ideal for the test

 

[Mojo]

Since Atlas is out heres is an interpretation of his Sun-Moon and ascendant combinations from Astro.com


You have a gift for synthesis, for reducing multiple problems to one concept in your mind. With this power for concentration and unification comes a desire for a position of authority. Your Moon and Sun combination makes you a romantic - not in the sentimental sense, but in the sense that you see yourself as a heroic person. You may feel that you are not bound by the laws and dictates of society. This sense of freedom, too, leads you to adventure and to plunge enthusiastically into many escapades. Your proud carriage and dignity support your self-image, but when your sensitive pride is ruffled, you are resentful. Anger is your first reaction to adverse criticism, but when you have calmed down you see the truth of what has been said.

Outwardly you are gay and have a sunny disposition that warms others. This is especially true in love, and you put your whole heart into your affections. Your trusting nature makes you totally unsuspicious of others. You know you are to be trusted, and you view others in the same light. At the time of your birth the zodiacal sign of Aquarius was ascending in the horizon. Its ruler Uranus is located in the ninth house.

You were born with a natural disposition to be humane, sympathetic, original and refined in your dealings with others. Among your features is the ability to understand human nature in a sympathetic manner. Unfortunately, you do not always act upon your intuitions and may become rationalistic at times when swift and prompt determination is required.

The common Aquarian is good and kindly, but usually led astray by eccentric and bizarre companions.

Your tastes are refined and your discrimination keen. You have a natural inclination toward the esoteric and mystical side of life and you could develop some clairvoyant abilities. Basically you are a lover of freedom; in the realization of this desire you may go to extremes.

Although changeable in appearance, your life is guided by very definite and fixed principles, one of which is a constant demand for personal freedom. In love you are a strange character. You can easily be emotionally attracted to one person and yet unpredictably terminate relationships.

As an inventor you have no rival; your problem is that sometimes you lack the practical ability to implement your creations. Professionally you will be successful in any of the following fields of activity: modern science, electrical work, photography, archaeology, astrology, radio etc.

A great part of your life is going to be geared to travel abroad. On the intellectual plane you are very gifted and exceptionally clever. Intuition is another of your natural gifts. You very often reach the solution to problems in a dramatically swift manner. You are going to be attracted all through your life by the uncommon; strange and unsubstantiated theories hold a special fascination for you.
You have a very airy, intelectual personality as air is very strong in your chart

Fits me pretty well.

 

[drkitten]

if you could find people who dont care if astrology works or not those would be ideal for the test

Heck, believers would be even better -- if we're going to have to deal with biases, I'm willing to put the confirmation bias in your favor. But the JREF pool is the JREF pool, and I can't conjure people to order out of thin air.


Anyone here got credulous wives or brothers-in-law that want to participate?

 

[Tricky]

Yes, usually believers say « Wow ,how accurate. I cant believe it»
Skeptics say.« All wrong mate»

A test like the one you just took eliminates most of that problem since the target doesn't know what he is reading and is required to pick the one closest to his actual characteristics. The only way negation bias would come into play would be if the targets were intentionally choosing the reading least like themselves. I seriously doubt that many people here would do that. Still, it would be best if the pool of targets were people who had no knowledge or opinions of astrology. Ideally, they shouldn't even know that astrology is being tested.

Unfortunately, we cannot produce those conditions here. Of course, if astrology had any practical basis, like suppose it could identify who would do certain jobs well, then grant money would be easy to come by for such a study. Employers would love to have such a useful tool.