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[achimspok]

In spite of all the "must"s and "can't"s asserted by achimspok without substantiation, we know that jet fuel ran down the tower to the basement level.

"We"? How fast? How much? How got it vaporized?
Here is a little orientation for the conditions you need to meet after you got enough below the cabins.

 

[TheRedWorm]

How do you explain it?

 

[achimspok]

How do you explain it?

The riddle?

 

[switchpoint]

"We"? How fast? How much? How got it vaporized?
Here is a little orientation for the conditions you need to meet after you got enough below the cabins.
[qimg]http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7087/lflufl.gif[/qimg]

Try atomized, not vaporized. Makes the stuff even more volatile. Happens to liquids when they fall. Go to the top of high building and pour a glass of water and see what happens.

Now imagine an elevator shaft full of atomized jet fuel. And a spark.

 

[achimspok]

Try atomized, not vaporized. Makes the stuff even more volatile. Happens to liquids when they fall. Go to the top of high building and pour a glass of water and see what happens.

Now imagine an elevator shaft full of atomized jet fuel. And a spark.

Wow, that's a good idea!
And that's the formula to calculate the fall speed depending on the radius.

g = 9.81 m/s²
pw = 825 kg/m³
pl = 1.2 kg/m³
cw = 1

You need drops as big as a ball to be in time.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If there were bombs in the buildings why bother with the aircraft?

Why not just blow the buildings up and blame terrorists? It makes it so much simpler.

Why would crashing 4 airliners full of passengers into important buildings like the WTC and Pentagon not be enough excuse to invade?

Why would there have to be the extra com,plication of all the bombs needed to collapse the buildings?


What if one of the aircraft had missed or the hijack hadn't worked. What do you do with a building all rigged and ready to explode?
Do you leave all the wires, detonators and explosives rigged and hope no one notices?
Alternatively do you blow them anyway and blame terrorist bombs?

Whichever way round it is, why bother adding a whole layer of extra complication and possible discovery?

 

[BigAl]

"We"? How fast? How much? How got it vaporized?
Here is a little orientation for the conditions you need to meet after you got enough below the cabins.
[qimg]http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7087/lflufl.gif[/qimg]

Apparently you are ignorant of the basic story of what happened in the towers before they collapsed. Survivors from all levels report jet fuel vapor. Many were burned in ways consistent with fuel vapor explosions. Hospitals treated lots of people for flash burns. They didn't treat anyone for injuries due to demolition explosions.

Read Report from Ground Zero by Smith.

In the basement, William Rodriquez describes under oath a fuel-air explosion.

The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building. And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A person comes running into the office saying explosion, explosion, explosion. When I look at this guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th . freight elevator, the biggest freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the
cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his skin vaporized.

William Rodriquez
Transcript of NIST Public Meeting in New York City . February 12, 2004


http://wtc.nist.gov/media/Public Transcript 021204 Final1_withlinks.pdf

 

[Dave Rogers]

Wow, that's a good idea!
And that's the formula to calculate the fall speed depending on the radius.
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9031/fallregen.png
g = 9.81 m/s²
pw = 825 kg/m³
pl = 1.2 kg/m³
cw = 1

You need drops as big as a ball to be in time.

That's assuming still air. There was a rather large deflagration, causing rapid expansion of gas, to accelerate the fuel down the shafts.

Dave

 

[pgimeno]

Are ridiculous or seem to be ridiculous?

Are ridiculous. Something utterly unnecessary such as bombs in the basement would just complicate things for a theoretical perpetrator. Plus there's no trace of explosives of any kind.

Imo the falling elevator/fuel theory is much more ridiculous

What about the falling elevator / fuel / transmission of impact energy to the foundations theory?

A few reminders:

- William Rodriguez's testimony from that very day that it sounded "like a rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way".

- Felipe David's testimony:

"That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot.

"I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself 'God, please give me strength.'"

Although severely burned on his face, arms and hands with skin hanging from his body like pieces of cloth, David picked himself up, running for help to the office were Rodriguez and others were gathered.

"When I went in, I told them it was an explosion," said David, who was then helped out of the WTC by Rodriguez and eventually taken by ambulance to New York Hospital. "When people looked at me with my skin hanging, they started crying but I heard others say 'OK, good, good, you made it alive."

(source)

- Jose Sanchez, maintenance worker, located in Basement 4:

Sanchez recalls, being in a small sub-level 4 workshop with another man who he only knew by the name of Chino when, out of nowhere, the blast sounded as the two men were cutting a piece of metal: 'It sounded like a bomb and the lights went on and off. We started to walk to the exit and a huge ball of fire went through the freight elevator. The hot air from the ball of fire dropped Chino to the floor and my hair got burned. The room then got full of smoke and I remember saying out loud ‘I believe it was a bomb that blew up inside the building.'

You asked for such a testimony, didn't you?

I don't have a better source than this indirect one, since the original seems to be disappeared (I've archived this one just in case, the link is still alive): http://backupurl.com/lupu8m

(Pretty interesting collection for both sides of the debate there, btw)

I really don't care about Willy since he was occupied by some holocaust denier. So I deceit it's a waste of time to study that. Nevertheless, I remember more witnesses who confirmed what Willy initially stated.

Do you mean the rumble thing? Because that's what he initially stated. Felipe David was the one who came to his office, his testimony is above.

André Rousseau: "Frequencies of waves generated by explosions are on the order of Hertz - which is the case here - while those of crash impacts are above 10 Hertz, often around 100 Hertz."

How many crash impacts against steel buildings have been measured to sustain that claim? I don't think the signals of a plane crashing into the ground and against a steel building are comparable.

The building sway was much slower than 1.4Hz but the frequency of the impact signals show a frequency of about 1.4Hz.

Hard to say where that frequency could come from. Resonance of foundations or steel members comes immediately to mind.

On the other hand, if an event generates seismic waves or not depends mostly on the contact to the ground.

That's a good point. Was the 1993 truck bomb in a column or in a truck?

As for the load simulation, I can't answer most of your questions, as I'm a layman in these fields. However, my point was that, regardless of the accuracy of the graphs, it's pretty obvious that the load increased unevenly over time, exceeding the capacity of some columns. Sooner or later the building had to come down. Blowing it was a very stupid idea.

I'll try to answer one of the questions, taking into account that it's my own view of the logic of it and not necessarily correct:

How could the SE quarter of the core reach those extreme loading conditions during the first 80min if the fire in that area wasn't observable prior to about 90 minutes? Is it because these columns are still cold?

That seems correct. The hot columns were more feeble and thus could not sustain the building so well as the cold ones. That increased the load on the cold ones.

 

[achimspok]

If there were bombs in the buildings why bother with the aircraft? Why not just blow the buildings up and blame terrorists? It makes it so much simpler.

Bad show! Ask PNAC! On the other hand, you probably know how difficult and dangerous and obvious it would be.

Why would crashing 4 airliners full of passengers into important buildings like the WTC and Pentagon not be enough excuse to invade?

Would be enough! ...but anyone could go up there and find plane parts and serial numbers and black boxes or whatever.

Why would there have to be the extra com,plication of all the bombs needed to collapse the buildings?

All the bombs? No. ...just noodle some columns to be sure. You know, it never happened before. We can not be sure that all that disappears in asbestos. Just put a passport on the pile and everything will be fine. Well, it's a bit hard to explain why that passport was found but not the beeping blackboxes but who cares. In ten years or so no one will ask for it anymore.

What if one of the aircraft had missed or the hijack hadn't worked. What do you do with a building all rigged and ready to explode?

OH! "AA11" hit during a banking turn at 493mph the center column lateral at 0° and vertical at 4° (btw the NIST numbers are wrong).
"UA175" hit at about 583mph perfectly leveled out of a turning power dive and cross wind at max. 1° vertical and less than 8° lateral a little bit off center.
"AA77" leveled and turned at about 530mph between Navy Annex and VDOT mast, dived down the hill, downed the 40ft light poles straight into a bankkeepers office at radio elevation 4ft or something?
No, I wouldn't be afraid that the plane could miss the target. We are good in such things, you know? ... not in Cessnas but ...

Do you leave all the wires, detonators and explosives rigged and hope no one notices?

Sure. No one would notice. Everybody would be that happy that the plane missed that nobody would crawl trough the elevator shafts or maybe the MER rooms or maybe behind the walls of the toilets at the "lower escalators" or into elevator pit up there. Not one! So you would continue with your elevator modernization and rig it down. 2-3 people 2 days and done.

Alternatively do you blow them anyway and blame terrorist bombs?

No. It would cause questions why nobody checked the buildings security, who ordered the bomb sniffing dogs away and all kind of that. Bad show and bad publicity even without a shred of evidence for conspiracy nuts.

Whichever way round it is, why bother adding a whole layer of extra complication and possible discovery?

It isn't what you think it is. We just want to be sure that every stinking piece will be shredded afterwards. It is not adding complications it's about flatlining complications, you know.
We try to save your a**, that's all!

 

[Andy_Ross]

So you claim the aircraft weren't hijacked but controlled remotely somehow?

Why is that any more likely than hijackers did it?

Why would you need a fake passport? what happend to the passengers and crews of the aircraft?

WHy would you be worried about the black boxes? If the aircraft were remotely controlled somehow and all the equipment for it went unnoticed by the ground crews wouldn't the plotters just put fake recordings into the black boxes or ensure they went missing?

 

[achimspok]

That's assuming still air. There was a rather large deflagration, causing rapid expansion of gas, to accelerate the fuel down the shafts.

Dave

That's right. We discussed it some posts above. The 3psi overpressure in some imaginary cube of gas above the damaged shaft could probably - if no pressure gets lost and enough pressure can follow from the impact floors - compress the air in the express shafts down to 77. If doors where blown out then less that far.
That pressure and fuel indeed existed but it already burned and did not explode. Let's say the fire went out due to a lack of oxygen. Now you have indeed some atomized fuel at 77. How long would it take to let it sink down into the basement without wetting the walls. How can this atomized cloud pass the cabins? And how could an explosion damage the local elevators while the doors of the express are still intact?

 

[BigAl]

That's right. We discussed it some posts above. The 3psi overpressure in some imaginary cube of gas above the damaged shaft could probably - if no pressure gets lost and enough pressure can follow from the impact floors - compress the air in the express shafts down to 77. If doors where blown out then less that far.
That pressure and fuel indeed existed but it already burned and did not explode. Let's say the fire went out due to a lack of oxygen. Now you have indeed some atomized fuel at 77. How long would it take to let it sink down into the basement without wetting the walls. How can this atomized cloud pass the cabins? And how could an explosion damage the local elevators while the doors of the express are still intact?

Put all your unsubstantiated conjecture in the context of the fact that jet fuel soaked the shafts of the towers all the way down to the basement.

 

[R.Mackey]

That's pretty accurate. I see most of it missing and I see some of it on the opposite side. Looks like the corners of the inner structure had concrete.

The entire load-bearing structure was concrete.

Btw, 30 seconds were not enough. Even 30 minutes were not enough. I doubt I can find any information on the structure by googleing around. Is your expertise based on the linked photograph? If so then there is a question you should ask yourself.
However, I decided to write an email to the architects. We will see.

You have a funny way of saying "I was wrong, sorry, I'll be more careful in the future."

I even showed you a picture.

This is why I rarely waste time with Truthers. It's your own fault you're confused, and your underlying habits that lead to it are nearly unbreakable.

 

[switchpoint]

Wow, that's a good idea!
And that's the formula to calculate the fall speed depending on the radius.
[qimg]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9031/fallregen.png[/qimg]
g = 9.81 m/s²
pw = 825 kg/m³
pl = 1.2 kg/m³
cw = 1

You need drops as big as a ball to be in time.

You really need to do the thing where I said to go to the top of a building and pour out a bucket of water and watch what happens. The water does not atomize the nanosecond it proceeds off the edge of the bucket. The fall causes it to segregate and eventually atomize. This isn't high level rocket science. This is just normal life experience. Wow.

 

[R.Mackey]

Also, the fuel wasn't falling in static air. Some was entrained behind parts of the aircraft or bits of the building. Others were accelerated by the blast.

It's a totally stupid argument. We discussed it... oh, three years ago... like everything else in the Truth Movement.

 

[achimspok]

So you claim the aircraft weren't hijacked but controlled remotely somehow?

Probably yes. ...at a certain point in time.

Why is that any more likely than hijackers did it?

Because of the special features of the attacks. Not one of the planes was "pointed at" you know? ...but hit with substantial certainty - not to use the word precision. All of these planes flew far over VNE! No muslim hijacker would endanger his mission by endanger his bomb. No muslim hijacker could have known about radar holes and war games. Hani wouldn't circle, he would point at, right?

Why would you need a fake passport.

...to blame someone! No one would buy the story without IMAGES of the ENEMY.

what happend to the passengers and crews of the aircraft?

Dead. ...in the buildings.

WHy would you be worried about the black boxes?

Not just about the black boxes. ...about everything. About baggage, about DNA, about serial numbers simply about everything left.

If the aircraft were remotely controlled somehow and all the equipment for it went unnoticed by the ground crews wouldn't the plotters just put fake recordings into the black boxes or ensure they went missing?

That's what they did. ...at least it seems so. Have you heard about the "AA11" black boxes or the "UA175" black boxes? Or the serial number of the "AA77" FDR? Or Warren Stutts second FOIA request regarding the FDR? I still haven't check it but I wonder why all data in the new readout are displaced regarding to the subframe counter. I wonder about the statement of "4-8 additional seconds" due to the uncompleted dataframe. The uncompleted dataframe contains max 4 seconds. I wonder about the total lack of warnings in the first FDR. Now we have at least GroundProximity for 17 seconds and Overspeed for the last 24 seconds. So it seems everything gets better and better.

 

[achimspok]

Put all your unsubstantiated conjecture in the context of the fact that jet fuel soaked the shafts of the towers all the way down to the basement.

OK but how fast?

 

[BigAl]

OK but how fast?

Why should we care?

 

[BigAl]

Probably yes. ...at a certain point in time.
Because of the special features of the attacks. Not one of the planes was "pointed at" you know? ...but hit with substantial certainty - not to use the word precision. All of these planes flew far over VNE!
.

So what? It's not like the hijackers intended to return the planes undamaged. It is clear you don't know why a VNE rating is given to a plane.