Another problem is that even if you legalize bulk growing and selling to coffee shops, the problem is not solved. The amount of marihuana grown in the Netherlands is way more than what's sold. In other words, we're exporting weed to other countries. Making it legal to sell weed in bulk to coffee shops will only make our weed a bit cheaper. Police will still need to go after weed growers. In other words, not much will change.
Cannabis commercialization question
- Thread starter jakesteele
- Start date
elbe
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2008
- Messages
- 4,983
Hemp just isn't that popular of a cash crop now. We have much better alternatives.
GeeMack
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2007
- Messages
- 7,235
There are probably quite a few police officers and prison employees whose livelihoods depend on prohibition who would disagree about that money being better spent elsewhere.
Unless it is legalized in the entire EU, or another solution would be to have a more harsh border control.
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Messages
- 28,828
Not only would such a law remove large swaths of prisoners - it would be removing prisoners less prone to violence, making the prisons a more dangerous place for guards.
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
Broken window fallacy.
Just sayin' you could also say the same things on water bearer, and buggy whip car.
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2003
- Messages
- 59,856
It's not legal in Amsterdam, it's just tolerated. Thus the high price, since it must be obtained from illegal sources.
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2003
- Messages
- 59,856
How could such a high price be maintained if it was legal?
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2003
- Messages
- 59,856
All other things being equal (seed stock, fertilization, etc) outdoor marijuana is superior in every way to indoor-grown.
Much like a hothouse tomato will never match one grown in your garden.
Right, we've already been over this above.
The calculation result is an underestimation due to the fact that people smoke more than a gram per day, so even tho it was simplified, then it still has a margin for overestimation of other factors.
Well, these are not tomatoes, so as you indicate yourself, then you have hydroponics as the strongest crop in regard to THC levels when advanced measures are taken of course.. As noted in this article..
"Indoors, high-powered lights that stimulate growth can remain on all day, their nourishing rays reflected off the metallic-coated paper covering walls. The chemical fertilizers used are just as powerful and nourishing, spawning fast-growing plants that produce more THC than those raised outdoors."
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1913401,00.html#ixzz0qenAhfzr
It's also worth to note, that the price doesn't seem to change all that much between medical marijuana and street sale. As shown in this wikiAnswer, http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_cost_of_medical_marijuana .. I don't know of any comparative studies that I could google.
How comparable is the cost of tobacco? In Arizona it's $2/pack excise tax plus $1/pack federal tax. So, a pack of smokes is about $5 before taxes. I believe a single stick is about a gram. That makes the cost of tobacco about 25 cents per gram, right? Loose tobacco is including taxes is about 5 to 10 cents per gram as best as I can figure.
What does pot cost these days? $10 to $20 per gram? I gotta figure that if it became legal in the USA that the economy of scale would kick in, and the prices would drop significantly. I would also think that once it's legal to start messing with the stuff, there will be lots of research done on refining production and making "good" varieties that can be grown inexpensively.
Once it's legal, the government will start applying friction in the form of taxes. I have no clue what that tax base would look like. Not only would there be sales tax, but there would be income taxes on the growers, manufacturers (chopping, bagging) and distributors that doesn't exist now. The retail chain probably wouldn't offer much new "legitimate" employment since it would probably be sold in all of the existing chains.
According to NORML (hot linking expressly permitted) there are about 900,000 marijuana arrests per year.
<a href="http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7042" target="_blank"><img src="http://norml.org/share/marijuana_arrests_chart.gif" alt="US Marijuana Arrests" width="679" height="445" border="0"></a>
This will undoubtedly have an effect on the economy as well, for bondsmen to legal professionals to courts to jails to prisons. On the flip side, many of these people are probably contributing in the "legitimate" economy before their arrest and may not be doing so after their arrest. It boggles the mind to think about the financial ramifications of that cycle stopping dead in its tracks.
From a top-down perspective, I'd like to think that cutting spending by government while increasing tax revenues should deliver some sort of benefit, even if only temporarily.
Personally, I'd have no problem if it were legalized. My (non)usage wouldn't change much. While I found the effects pleasant, I found that about half the times I used it I was particularly cranky the next day. I found myself overly sensitive to criticism and jokes so much that others pointed it out to me, so I don't do it anymore (not that I did it all that much anyway).
What does pot cost these days? $10 to $20 per gram? I gotta figure that if it became legal in the USA that the economy of scale would kick in, and the prices would drop significantly. I would also think that once it's legal to start messing with the stuff, there will be lots of research done on refining production and making "good" varieties that can be grown inexpensively.
Once it's legal, the government will start applying friction in the form of taxes. I have no clue what that tax base would look like. Not only would there be sales tax, but there would be income taxes on the growers, manufacturers (chopping, bagging) and distributors that doesn't exist now. The retail chain probably wouldn't offer much new "legitimate" employment since it would probably be sold in all of the existing chains.
According to NORML (hot linking expressly permitted) there are about 900,000 marijuana arrests per year.
<a href="http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7042" target="_blank"><img src="http://norml.org/share/marijuana_arrests_chart.gif" alt="US Marijuana Arrests" width="679" height="445" border="0"></a>
This will undoubtedly have an effect on the economy as well, for bondsmen to legal professionals to courts to jails to prisons. On the flip side, many of these people are probably contributing in the "legitimate" economy before their arrest and may not be doing so after their arrest. It boggles the mind to think about the financial ramifications of that cycle stopping dead in its tracks.
From a top-down perspective, I'd like to think that cutting spending by government while increasing tax revenues should deliver some sort of benefit, even if only temporarily.
Personally, I'd have no problem if it were legalized. My (non)usage wouldn't change much. While I found the effects pleasant, I found that about half the times I used it I was particularly cranky the next day. I found myself overly sensitive to criticism and jokes so much that others pointed it out to me, so I don't do it anymore (not that I did it all that much anyway).
There are two things that talk against it being significantly cheaper as legit:
- Legit medical marijuana is about the same price as black market marijuana
- Cigarettes on the black market is cheaper than legit and taxed cigarettes.
Also, most people, in nothern Europe at least, don't smoke pot, but highly refined skunk or hashish. Which are both much more expensive than pot and stronger in THC levels.
Check out any marijuana/cannabis seed site for measures.
Last edited:
You missed the major point, which is the economy of scale. It is still illegal in the USA to grow marijuana. If it becomes legal and corporations are confident they can make the required infrastructure investments and not worry about it being made illegal again before they can recoup their startup costs, they will be able grow it orders of magnitude more efficiently. It's not going to be grown in some guy's basement with everything done by hand.
Granted, tobacco is not the same as marijuana, but the fact is they can do it legally with all the associated costs (tractors, drying houses, machinery, distribution, wages, insurance, etc) and sell loose tobacco for pennies per gram. Are you seriously arguing that once big corporations get involved it will still cost 100X as much as tobacco?
How is that relevant? The fact is that in the few places you can grow it, production is severly limited. If they open up the USA market and allow large scale production, technology will make it much less expensive to produce.
I'm not missing any major points, it's you who don't understand that it already is legit in several states in USA, and that you can grow it and buy it legit for medical marijuana use.. No big corporations has apparently - then - shown interest, as no huge drop in prices has been recorded. How can that not be relevant when you claim the exact opposite? I don't know how many patients some of these primary caregivers are holding tho.
Last edited:
Did you read your citation? The most anyone can possess under state law is 24 ounces. Most states limit you to 6 plants or less. And it's still illegal under federal law. So, you have no evidence whatsoever to refute the notion that if legalized in the USA (not state laws for just medical pot) that corporations are not going to get involved.
About the closest thing we have for comparison is alcohol, which can be created in large quantities without the need for a lot of land. The raw ingredients are available legally. Even then, it appears that the price increased substantially.
Pot has no infrastructure in place for mass production. It's very difficult to grow it in large quantities without being detected. And technology has improved dramatically since the time of prohibition, so the differences between home-grown (brewed) and mass production is vastly different.
I didn't claim that they wouldn't get involved, just that they weren't involved at this point if your price hypothesis should be corrent. And no, they limit you to between 6-24 plants but not per person, only per person the primary caregiver is holding. How many patients a caregiver can hold varies from state to state. It's you who didn't read it.
The raw ingredients are available for marijuana as well, as both seeds and soil is quite legal. And alcohol and spirits was large scale smugled in from Canada and elsewhere during the days of your prohobition - sea or land. It wasn't just homebrew that was involved.
I don't know what operations count as large scale for you, but here's an example from Santa Fe where:
"A longtime Santa Fe resident has applied to be the second medical marijuana provider in the state. If approved, he'll operate a 2,400-square-foot indoor growing operation somewhere in Santa Fe County and deliver marijuana to the doorsteps of registered patients."
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Local+News/A-budding-business
It obviously differs from state to state how much you are allowed to grow at a time, i.e. how many patients you are allowed to serve. But large scale operations does seem to take place legally.
GeeMack
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2007
- Messages
- 7,235
Large scale? 2400 square feet is a 40 foot by 60 foot pole barn. That's about a sixteenth of an acre, a quarter of a small urban residential lot. It would take a kid with a push mower less than a half hour to mow it. As far as agricultural production goes, you wouldn't grow 5 apple trees in that tiny space. You might get a couple of dozen cantaloupes out of it, or three bushels of tomatoes, or maybe one cow. Large scale?
kevinquinnyo
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2009
- Messages
- 1,584
Large scale illegal operations take place too.
But are you seriously denying that legalization wouldn't reduce the cost of production significantly?
Do you think all of that risk and secrecy doesn't have a huge cost? I would consider growing marijuana and selling it, were the risks of imprisonment and violence not so high.
You don't think farmers all across the U.S. would start growing it if it were legal? You don't think an increase in supply, and a decrease in cost of production would lower the price?
kevinquinnyo
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2009
- Messages
- 1,584
I don't understand this one bit.
First of all, you admit that the production cost would go down. And then you follow by saying, to address this ....
What needs to be addressed? Production cost going down is a good thing.
And what do you mean that you would keep the price the same? Do you mean if you were the dictator of the U.S. and had the ability to set prices?
Or do you mean if you were the leader of a cartel and had the ability to set prices?
You go on to say "To counteract someone selling it illegally for less money..."
???
Aren't we talking about legalizing it?