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Cancel culture IRL

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I don’t buy the “one week of not doing only my most favorite thing is torture” analogy.
I will pass this on to whomever made an analogy to torture, as soon as I can track them down.

And easily ignored.
Please tell this to the employers who sacked people for going viral. (Not Kroger, they are fine.)
 
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I see that as a problem with putting your happiness into the hands of the mob. That is not a Cancel Culture issue, that is a Social Media issue.

If your career is also in the hands of the mob, then that amplifies the risk.

So, if your happiness and your career both depend on appeasing the mob, then I would expect a level of caution that reflects the important role you have allowed Social Media to take in your life.

Much like a lumber jack is wary of the trees, or the herpetologist keeps a close eye on the pointy end of their subjects, I would expect those who live on social media to know the risks and live accordingly.

I've never gone sky diving, but I imagine it is something that would be more interesting to me than posting anything publicly on a social media platform. And far less risky.

Suppose though.....your career has nothing to do with social media. Take the guy in the OP. His attempted cancellation had nothing to do with his activities on social media.
 
Suppose though.....your career has nothing to do with social media. Take the guy in the OP. His attempted cancellation had nothing to do with his activities on social media.

Then it’s exactly what always has happened if one publicly acts like an ass; you risk losing your job or reputation due to public opinion.

Zero new or interesting things happening.
 
Agreed, this is nothing new unless you want to include the social media reach.

What's interesting is the stupid and trivial things that constitute "acting like an ass" and the outrage mob's reaction to them.
 
There is nothing new about public figures being dependent upon their public reputation, to be sure. Seems to me there is something new when someone like Justine Sacco or Adria Richards or Zoe Quinn becomes instantly known to a much broader public because they've gone viral in some unfortunate way.

If you choose to allow conservative activists to redefine terms for you, I won't try to stop you. Don't expect anyone else to play along, though.

I keep coming back to this post, and I think it excellently displays the "begging the question" I described earlier. Seems to me an absurd stretch to lump all these kinds of incidents together as one unified "cancel culture".

Do we really think Gamergate style anti-feminist freakouts from gamer reactionaries and HR companies firing employees for poor taste jokes and comedians losing popularity for being sex pests and racists getting outed for public tirades etc etc are all examples of the same grand phenomena?

Seems plainly obvious to me that these incidents are have very little to do with each other beyond the vague theme that bad behavior, which itself is broadly and variably defined, sometimes leads to negative consequences in certain contexts.

Each of these incidents have enough nuance on their own. They involve varying communities with varying values. In some examples, like GamerGate, these communities and values are so extreme they are almost incomprehensible to the general public. In some examples, it's fairly mundane HR type ass covering for when an employee publicly embarrasses themselves and their employer by extension.

I see no reason these varying incidents need be grouped under the same category unless, as is the case with reactionary conservatives, the goal is to undermine the very concept of socially acceptable behavior.
 
Suppose though.....your career has nothing to do with social media. Take the guy in the OP. His attempted cancellation had nothing to do with his activities on social media.

The guy who wasn't canceled? Perfect example of what I was discussing. His pain was completely and entirely tied to how important social media was to his life.
 
The guy who wasn't canceled? Perfect example of what I was discussing. His pain was completely and entirely tied to how important social media was to his life.

Are you assuming that he did NOT experience any anxiety, stress, or harmful psychological effects as a result of his involuntary exposure on social media, and having been targeted by someone trying to ruin his life?
 
Suppose though.....your career has nothing to do with social media. Take the guy in the OP. His attempted cancellation had nothing to do with his activities on social media.

Are you assuming that he did NOT experience any anxiety, stress, or harmful psychological effects as a result of his involuntary exposure on social media, and having been targeted by someone trying to ruin his life?

No, I'm postulating that since he probably cared as much about social media as I do he likely did not fully grasp the scale of what was happening until it had already happened.

What social media adherents feel in real time is not to be minimized. That the rest of the world reads about it three days later and rolls their eyes is just as true.
 
One of the things I see in this thread is a conflation between the quality of an outcome, and the quality of the actions taken preceding that outcome.

There's an entire field of study around "Decision Science". Lots of people are really quite poor at being able to determine whether a decision was a good decision or not; they assume that a good outcome is proof of a good decision, and that a bad outcome is the result of a bad decision. This is rarely the case. Outcomes tend to be reliant on many factors outside of the direct control of the person making the decision. A good decision considers the possible and likely outcomes of a path, and weighs those outcomes and risks, then chooses the path that provides the highest likelihood of a good outcome.

A person might decide to take up running to increase their health. They might consider various different methods of becoming more healthy, balance against their likes and dislikes, and the potential types of injuries, and decide that running is the method most likely to provide good health outcomes in a sustainable fashion. That's a good decision. They might also have a previously unknown health condition that results in considerable injury when they take up running. That's a bad outcome. It was still a good decision, but the outcome was influenced by unknown factors.

On the other hand, a person might go to Vegas and bet all of their savings on a roulette spin. That's a bad decision. They might win that spin and double their money. That's a good outcome. It was still a bad decision, but they got absurdly lucky and ended up with a good outcome.

For a whole lot of this thread, cases get brought up in which the target was subjected to a considerable amount of harassment, abuse, intimidation, and real effects on their livelihood and their well-being. But in a whole lot of those cases, the target managed to recover and move on with their lives... and that outcome gets held up as proof that it wasn't that big a deal.

I think this is a very flawed approach to evaluating the appropriateness and acceptability of social-media pile-ons and campaigns to damage people's reputation and livelihoods. For the most part, we only really get news coverage of people who are relatively well known and famous, and who already have the ability to weather a storm. We almost never get coverage of regular every-day people who can't.

There's also a tendency to retroactively defend the abuse by deciding that the target did something bad, and therefore they deserved it. But we've seen several cases where the target did NOT do something bad, but were subjected to severe opprobrium and social sanction anyway.

I'd really like to ask the posters in this thread to genuinely consider the following two scenarios:

Scenario 1

Imagine that you're out in public at a social event, and you're confronted by a group of people targeting you with hateful rhetoric. You mostly ignore them, but they're persistent. Someone else sees this happening and comes up to you singing "kumbaya" loudly, and seemingly targeting you with their singing, rather than the people hurling epithets. Some random person videos this last bit and posts it on the internet, claiming that you were harassing the peaceful singer.

How do you feel about a large number of complete strangers viewing that clip, and reacting very strongly to it by placing the blame on you and calling you names? How do you feel about the news media latching on to this viral phenomenon, and publishing your name along with their interpretation based on that short clip? How do you feel about strangers sending you and your family death threats and wishes for harm to befall you? How do you feel about those strangers contacting your employer and demanding that you be fired because of that video clip? How do you feel about being vilified across the country, being labeled as an evil person?

Do you think that is acceptable and appropriate, even if you manage to keep your job?

Scenario 2

Imagine that you own a small business. You employ your nephew at your family business. One day, you find out that seven years ago, your nephew made some racist tweets. Even though the nephew says that they no longer feel like that, it was a strange teenage phase, and that they regret having made the tweets, you still decide that the right thing to do is to fire your nephew. Someone finds out about this and puts an article on the internet, suggesting that you are complicit in your nephew's behavior.

How do you feel about strangers on the internet petitioning all of your clients to stop doing business with you? How do you feel about being vilified as "racist adjacent"? How do you feel about your clients and suppliers pulling their contracts because they're afraid to be associated with you because of the social media backlash?

Do you think that is acceptable and appropriate, even if you manage to keep a remnant of your business afloat?
 
One of the things I see in this thread is a conflation between the quality of an outcome, and the quality of the actions taken preceding that outcome.

There's an entire field of study around "Decision Science". Lots of people are really quite poor at being able to determine whether a decision was a good decision or not; they assume that a good outcome is proof of a good decision, and that a bad outcome is the result of a bad decision. This is rarely the case. Outcomes tend to be reliant on many factors outside of the direct control of the person making the decision. A good decision considers the possible and likely outcomes of a path, and weighs those outcomes and risks, then chooses the path that provides the highest likelihood of a good outcome.

A person might decide to take up running to increase their health. They might consider various different methods of becoming more healthy, balance against their likes and dislikes, and the potential types of injuries, and decide that running is the method most likely to provide good health outcomes in a sustainable fashion. That's a good decision. They might also have a previously unknown health condition that results in considerable injury when they take up running. That's a bad outcome. It was still a good decision, but the outcome was influenced by unknown factors.

On the other hand, a person might go to Vegas and bet all of their savings on a roulette spin. That's a bad decision. They might win that spin and double their money. That's a good outcome. It was still a bad decision, but they got absurdly lucky and ended up with a good outcome.

For a whole lot of this thread, cases get brought up in which the target was subjected to a considerable amount of harassment, abuse, intimidation, and real effects on their livelihood and their well-being. But in a whole lot of those cases, the target managed to recover and move on with their lives... and that outcome gets held up as proof that it wasn't that big a deal.

I think this is a very flawed approach to evaluating the appropriateness and acceptability of social-media pile-ons and campaigns to damage people's reputation and livelihoods. For the most part, we only really get news coverage of people who are relatively well known and famous, and who already have the ability to weather a storm. We almost never get coverage of regular every-day people who can't.

There's also a tendency to retroactively defend the abuse by deciding that the target did something bad, and therefore they deserved it. But we've seen several cases where the target did NOT do something bad, but were subjected to severe opprobrium and social sanction anyway.

I'd really like to ask the posters in this thread to genuinely consider the following two scenarios:

Scenario 1

Imagine that you're out in public at a social event, and you're confronted by a group of people targeting you with hateful rhetoric. You mostly ignore them, but they're persistent. Someone else sees this happening and comes up to you singing "kumbaya" loudly, and seemingly targeting you with their singing, rather than the people hurling epithets. Some random person videos this last bit and posts it on the internet, claiming that you were harassing the peaceful singer.

How do you feel about a large number of complete strangers viewing that clip, and reacting very strongly to it by placing the blame on you and calling you names? How do you feel about the news media latching on to this viral phenomenon, and publishing your name along with their interpretation based on that short clip? How do you feel about strangers sending you and your family death threats and wishes for harm to befall you? How do you feel about those strangers contacting your employer and demanding that you be fired because of that video clip? How do you feel about being vilified across the country, being labeled as an evil person?

Do you think that is acceptable and appropriate, even if you manage to keep your job?

Scenario 2

Imagine that you own a small business. You employ your nephew at your family business. One day, you find out that seven years ago, your nephew made some racist tweets. Even though the nephew says that they no longer feel like that, it was a strange teenage phase, and that they regret having made the tweets, you still decide that the right thing to do is to fire your nephew. Someone finds out about this and puts an article on the internet, suggesting that you are complicit in your nephew's behavior.

How do you feel about strangers on the internet petitioning all of your clients to stop doing business with you? How do you feel about being vilified as "racist adjacent"? How do you feel about your clients and suppliers pulling their contracts because they're afraid to be associated with you because of the social media backlash?

Do you think that is acceptable and appropriate, even if you manage to keep a remnant of your business afloat?

How I feel is a bit irrelevant. It rings of "think of the children" somehow. The better question, which is completely ignored, is what can you do to stop this?How do you keep a mob from acting like a mob?

I think the only solution is to recognize the mob has no real power. It derives its power from how it is perceived by those with power. Those with power need to learn how to better react to the mob. For example, it should be apparent that reacting quickly to online chatter is almost always a losing position. But I'm sure there is even more to be learned from studying these instances.

The other problem, as pointed out by ST, is that by lumping these two instances in with people who are getting a response that they have earned, there is no real room to discuss what, if anything, went wrong in these instances. Make it all a part of cancel culture and then you don't have to deal with it at all. Make it all bad, whether it was some innocent thing that was made to look bad or a comedian drugging actors to rape them. All cancel culture is bad, move along from the congressman who venmoed money to his buddy to pay for sex with minors, that is just cancel culture like when "they" attacked Dr. Seuss. (Also not a medical doctor.)
 
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From where I'm sitting, Kroger Andy wasn't the one acting like an ass.

I admit, I forgot that the OP was a prime example of cancel culture not existing. I’m terribly sorry I assumed it was an example of someone being mildly inconvenienced due to their own seeking out inconvenience du to being an ass.

I profusely apologize
 
Are you assuming that he did NOT experience any anxiety, stress, or harmful psychological effects as a result of his involuntary exposure on social media, and having been targeted by someone trying to ruin his life?

I certainly am.

“Oh no! A few people who I don’t know have completely not impacted my life! What to do!”

1) seek out every random criticism of something that didn’t affect you in order to become indignant

2) don’t look at twitter for a couple of days
 
Not far from here a woman was stopped (allegedly for driving while using her cell-phone). The cop recorded the conversation on a bodycam funded at his own expense. She quickly accuses him of being a murderer. Later she says he's a "Mexican racist" who will "never be white." A real treat, this one.



People with predictably right-wing sensibilities have swarmed her social media. She is, or used to be, an English professor. Twitter activists are trying to contact her employer to have her fired for being a racist. Based on her dated Ratemyprofessor reviews, she sounds like a jerk.
 
The other problem, as pointed out by ST, is that by lumping these two instances in with people who are getting a response that they have earned, there is no real room to discuss what, if anything, went wrong in these instances. Make it all a part of cancel culture and then you don't have to deal with it at all. Make it all bad, whether it was some innocent thing that was made to look bad or a comedian drugging actors to rape them. All cancel culture is bad, move along from the congressman who venmoed money to his buddy to pay for sex with minors, that is just cancel culture like when "they" attacked Dr. Seuss. (Also not a medical doctor.)

I'm going to push back on this. I don't think anything at all "went wrong". I think this is an easily foreseeable and unavoidable outcome of what is effectively vigilante justice being normalized and viewed as appropriate.

While it's not new in the history of humanity, this dynamic has also never been good. What we essentially have is a population of strangers acting as judge, jury, and executioner (metaphorically) where the underlying assumption is 'guilty until proven innocent'.

The way you frame this seems to imply that you believe that the 'mob' involved is comprised of a bunch of individuals who have all independently weighed the pros and cons and have come to an informed decision that harassing, threatening, and getting people fired is the 'right' thing to do.

I disagree. I think that the mob is not a bunch of intelligent people making reasonable decisions, but is rather a bunch of bandwagoners jumping on wherever they think it will score them some social points, who genuinely do not care that they are contributing to real harm at all. They don't care that the target of their campaigns is harmed by their action - the 'collateral damage' to other people is irrelevant as long as they feel like they're 'on the right side of history'.

That some of the people burned at the stake are NOT witches is an easily, indeed elementarily predictable result.

I'm inclined to say that we shouldn't be asking "gee, what went wrong that we ended up burning a couple of innocents instead of the real witches?" and instead asking "who the **** are we to decide that witch burning is a good idea in the first ******* place?"
 
I'm going to push back on this. I don't think anything at all "went wrong". I think this is an easily foreseeable and unavoidable outcome of what is effectively vigilante justice being normalized and viewed as appropriate.

While it's not new in the history of humanity, this dynamic has also never been good. What we essentially have is a population of strangers acting as judge, jury, and executioner (metaphorically) where the underlying assumption is 'guilty until proven innocent'.

The way you frame this seems to imply that you believe that the 'mob' involved is comprised of a bunch of individuals who have all independently weighed the pros and cons and have come to an informed decision that harassing, threatening, and getting people fired is the 'right' thing to do.

I disagree. I think that the mob is not a bunch of intelligent people making reasonable decisions, but is rather a bunch of bandwagoners jumping on wherever they think it will score them some social points, who genuinely do not care that they are contributing to real harm at all. They don't care that the target of their campaigns is harmed by their action - the 'collateral damage' to other people is irrelevant as long as they feel like they're 'on the right side of history'.

That some of the people burned at the stake are NOT witches is an easily, indeed elementarily predictable result.

I'm inclined to say that we shouldn't be asking "gee, what went wrong that we ended up burning a couple of innocents instead of the real witches?" and instead asking "who the **** are we to decide that witch burning is a good idea in the first ******* place?"

I think you will find that putting the solution in the hands of the mob is not a real solution. You can accept the mob exists and study its dynamics (which you seem to be doing) or you can act like the mob doesn't exist (which is more my position). The mob does not care about you or me any more than the ocean cares about the sand on the beach.
 
When you seek to apply a single motivation to a large and diverse group of people you know very little about individually you'll get a bad conclusion. Certainly some of the people involved in any given cancellation are bandwagoneers trying to score internet points, others are malicious liars out to harm people they don't like and manipulate others to do so, others are well meaning people that got it wrong, and others are just plain uninformed but still have an opinion.

And that's when they get a cancellation wrong, many times people saying awful things are chastised on the internet deservedly.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view, every single one of them has a right to put their opinion out there.
 
I think you will find that putting the solution in the hands of the mob is not a real solution. You can accept the mob exists and study its dynamics (which you seem to be doing) or you can act like the mob doesn't exist (which is more my position). The mob does not care about you or me any more than the ocean cares about the sand on the beach.

This.
The “mob” is an impotent collection of powerless nobodies.
They are akin to a group of ten-year-olds that yell at your car as you go to work.

If they are yelling about the time you actually abused them, (generic “you,” obviously,) then it’s okay when the authorities or your employers look into it.

I am unaware of any group of random internet posts that met and formed a legally recognized tribunal in which an adult was convicted and punished.

So “vigilante justice” is a wild exaggeration.

An adult human is more than capable of ignoring baseless and anonymous criticism or threats.
If one is not, lock oneself in a Faraday cage and wrap up in aluminum foil.
 
The guy who wasn't canceled? Perfect example of what I was discussing. His pain was completely and entirely tied to how important social media was to his life.

True, he might not have found out about the attempted cancellation until somebody mailed him that check for $17K with a note saying "Have a nice vacation" with a little smiley face drawn at bottom of the card.
 
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