Cont: Cancel culture IRL Part 2

[Emily's Cat]

You guys are getting dangerously close to committing a cancel against smartcooky. He’s already been anonymously called out for racist terminology, shamed, and forced to apologize

This made me laugh.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Never met a genuine apology I didn't accept

Fair enough.

The entirely realistic (and currently observed) outcome of your view toward speech is one that allows anything. Your view allows racism, bigotry, homophobia and transphobia to go unchecked and unimpeded, and greatly helps to divide society, while blithely assuming that everyone else will magically always hold the same views as you.

I disagree. Disallowing that speech doesn't make the beliefs go away. It just makes people who don't hold those beliefs extremely paranoid about anything they say that might be misinterpreted.

Allowing that speech also allows it to be challenged and debated.

It is worth noting that countries such as the UK and other European countries have had the kinds of laws I advocate, against hate speech, for at least two decades, and yet the sky has not fallen in any of those places. So far, NONE of your "entirely realistic outcome" has come to pass. I wonder why that is?

There is that whole bit where females in Scotland and Northern Ireland are being arrested and charged with "hate crimes" for posting some pretty basic science and feminist views on social media.

Cancel them

Cancelling them would get me labeled a "transphobe" and probably get me harassed IRL.

PS: you think that being against "threatening rape, calling them misogynistic names, and opinion that females should be killed, bombed"?" is a subjective view? Really? .
.

Yes, it is subjective. It's *reasonable* and *rational* but still subjective. It's based on what I, personally, with my cultural background and my moral premises, thinks are acceptable versus not acceptable. I think a lot of people agree with me, but that agreement doesn't make it objective.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, it doesn't

Really? Do you happen to have a copy of their policy, and perhaps you can quote where transgender people are excluded?

I have a subscription to Netflix. I looked for it, there is none that I can find.

Your Netflix-fu is weak.
At a minimum... Disclosure

I'd say Orange is the New Black, and also Sabrina the Teenage Witch. Both of those feature fairly prominent transgender characters.

Also Q-Theory, and The Danish Girl.

Well spotted. You should write to the Censor's Office and suggest it

Why would I do that? I think it's an incredibly stupid and repressive idea!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yup, but as must be abundantly clear to you by now (surely), freedom of speech means something entirely different for me than it does for you.

I am well aware. It seems that for you freedom of speech mostly means freedom to speak as long as they agree with you.

 

[smartcooky]

I am well aware. It seems that for you freedom of speech mostly means freedom to speak as long as they agree with you.

Glibness and ignorance in one phrase.

There is a veritable abundance of things I disagree with that I would allow people to express freely.

Climate change denial
Conspiracy theories
Government policies
Tax dodges for corporations and rich people
Support for the death penalty
Astrology
Fortune telling
Support for unrestricted gun ownership

....this is just a tiny sample...

I draw the line at bigotry against protected classes of people, e.g. racism, homophobia, transphobia

You draw the line at a much lower level.

 

[smartcooky]

Really? Do you happen to have a copy of their policy, and perhaps you can quote where transgender people are excluded?

Goal post shift. I never said they were excluded

Your Netflix-fu is weak.
At a minimum... Disclosure

I'd say Orange is the New Black, and also Sabrina the Teenage Witch. Both of those feature fairly prominent transgender characters.

Also Q-Theory, and The Danish Girl.

Disclosure: "this program is not available in your country"

Orange is the New Black: "this program is not available in your country"

Q-Theory: "this program is not available in your country"

Danish Girl: "this program is not available in your country"

Sabrina is a program for teenagers... I've never seen that

 

[smartcooky]

I disagree. Disallowing that speech doesn't make the beliefs go away. It just makes people who don't hold those beliefs extremely paranoid about anything they say that might be misinterpreted.

Good, that is the effect I would hope for. Think about what you say before you say it means it is much harder to spread your racism and bigotry. I made the mistake of not doing that in post#311 and was rightly called for it by angrysoba.

Eventually the racists and bigots die off, leaving descendants who are far less likely to be racist and bigots, Its called breaking the cycle.

Allowing that speech also allows it to be challenged and debated.

Weak sauce indeed. If you eliminate the speech, there is no need to debate it.

There is that whole bit where females in Scotland and Northern Ireland are being arrested and charged with "hate crimes" for posting some pretty basic science and feminist views on social media.

The is well above were I draw the line.

Cancelling them would get me labeled a "transphobe" and probably get me harassed IRL.

Wait! Opposing the idea of "threatening female people with rape, calling them misogynistic names, and opining that females should be killed, bombed?"
would get you labelled a transphobe? Seriously?

Yes, it is subjective. It's *reasonable* and *rational* but still subjective. It's based on what I, personally, with my cultural background and my moral premises, thinks are acceptable versus not acceptable. I think a lot of people agree with me, but that agreement doesn't make it objective.

You have a somewhat strange definition of "subjective"

 

[lionking]

Glibness and ignorance in one phrase.

There is a veritable abundance of things I disagree with that I would allow people to express freely.

Climate change denial
Conspiracy theories
Government policies
Tax dodges for corporations and rich people
Support for the death penalty
Astrology
Fortune telling
Support for unrestricted gun ownership

....this is just a tiny sample...

I draw the line at bigotry against protected classes of people, e.g. racism, homophobia, transphobia

You draw the line at a much lower level.

Well this is just a ridiculous list. The biggest threat to humanity is climate change, yet you will not censor debate about this, just your definition of "bigotry".

 

[Upchurch]

Topsy-turvy world: A black male is "punching down" at middle and upper class white males... whereas those particular middle and upper class white males are "punching up" at females.

Yes, because trans people have so much power compared to a popular celebrity who, despite all the handwringing, still has 5 comedy specials and a Comedy Central series on the world’s largest streaming service.

Also, are you under the impression that trans people are “middle and upper class white males”?

 

[smartcooky]

Well this is just a ridiculous list.

In your opinion

The biggest threat to humanity is climate change, yet you will not censor debate about this

Yes, and?

BTW, the Climate denial thread is thataway ----->

just your definition of "bigotry".

Bwahahaha! Seriously?

These are the general definitions I use

Prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

The treatment of members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

How about you? What definition do you use?

PS: You should know what bigotry looks like... Manus Island rings a bell does it?

 

[d4m10n]

Yeah, in many cases it was.

So in some cases the crackhead bits were okay?

Can you think of a one-hour set which doesn't include "punching down" as you've defined it? I'm curious to know what ethical comedy—the sort of comedy which needn't be protested, decatalogued, divested, or otherwise canceled—really sounds like.

(...but please don't make me watch Hanna Gadsby again.)

 

[tyr_13]

So in some cases the crackhead bits were okay?

Some parts were, yeah. This isn't a hard concept you're pretending is outrageous.

Can you think of a one-hour set which doesn't include "punching down" as you've defined it?

So many that it really makes it difficult, and unwise to take your challenges seriously. I can't think of a single one from Bo Burnham or John Mulaney that doesn't meet your challenge. Even Bill Engvall and Larry the Cable Guy have entire sets that don't punch down once.

I'm curious to know what ethical comedy—the sort of comedy which needn't be protested, decatalogued, divested, or otherwise canceled—really sounds like.

(...but please don't make me watch Hanna Gadsby again.)

No you're clearly not. You're again trying to make an argument you don't have to defend by putting up challenges and 'just asking questions'. Keep up with your straw version of my argument all you want, it doesn't make your argument valid.

 

[d4m10n]

I can't think of a single one from Bo Burnham or John Mulaney that doesn't meet your challenge. Even Bill Engvall and Larry the Cable Guy have entire sets that don't punch down once.

So...white male comics. Makes sense, I suppose.

This isn't a hard concept you're pretending is outrageous.

It's not difficult so much as it is homogenizing and boring.

 

[tyr_13]

Some parts were, yeah. This isn't a hard concept you're pretending is outrageous.



So many that it really makes it difficult, and unwise to take your challenges seriously. I can't think of a single one from Bo Burnham or John Mulaney that doesn't meet your challenge. Even Bill Engvall and Larry the Cable Guy have entire sets that don't punch down once.



No you're clearly not. You're again trying to make an argument you don't have to defend by putting up challenges and 'just asking questions'. Keep up with your straw version of my argument all you want, it doesn't make your argument valid.

So...white male comics. Makes sense, I suppose.

It's not difficult so much as it is homogenizing and boring.

What do you define 'boring' as? From your objections it would be 'anything that doesn't demean oppressed groups for being those groups.

 

[d4m10n]

What do you define 'boring' as?

Those specific white dudes are boring, IMO.

Do you support any QTBIPOC comics?

 

[tyr_13]

Those specific white dudes are boring, IMO.

That wasn't the challenge you set. You've hand waved twice over now, but will not actually meet a similar challenge. How many 'white dudes' aren't 'boring' and as 'homogenizing' as these stand ups as close in style as *checks notes* Larry The Cable Guy and Bo Burnham? I'm just trying to 'gauge your standards' that doesn't rely on punching down as comedy. So far we have they can't be white guys.

Do you support any QTBIPOC comics?

Not a single one. /s

I know the argument you desperately wish you could make is that people like me are the 'real racists' but you don't have the courage to admit that race might actually be an issue. Still you want to distract from my proven point. Your tastes are worthless in deciding the value of my original point and as you're not going to even try addressing it I'm done again with you.

 

[dirtywick]

So are we now determining whether cancel culture is justified based on how funny or boring the speech is?

Dave Chapelle is just following his formula anyway, he’s the guy that “goes there” he’s retreading his last comedy special where he goes after trans people and creates a controversy and complains about how unfair he’s got it and if you don’t watch his thing then your basically supporting cancel culture. Talk about boring Davd I already saw this one last time.

In any case the real question here is what’s the problem? Dave says something some people don’t like, they make their case why it was bad, it’s up to the general public to decide whether or not they have an opinion to add and ultimately if want more or less Dave Chapelle comedy. To me that sounds a lot more like free speech in action than only Dave Chapelle gets to talk and if you don’t like his jokes you should just grow up and get over yourself.

 

[smartcooky]

I know the argument you desperately wish you could make is that people like me are the 'real racists' but you don't have the courage to admit that race might actually be an issue. Still you want to distract from my proven point. Your tastes are worthless in deciding the value of my original point and as you're not going to even try addressing it I'm done again with you.

Absolutely nailed it there!!

 

[d4m10n]

Not a single one.

If you're comfortable promoting the idea that only white male comics are doing it right, just own it.

It makes perfect sense to me that they'd be extra careful about "punching down," as the kids say, but I'm incredibly skeptical of the idea that they are adding more value than the average replacement level comic.

 

[d4m10n]

Dave says something some people don’t like, they make their case why it was bad, it’s up to the general public to decide whether or not they have an opinion to add and ultimately if want more or less Dave Chapelle comedy.

Check the Rotten Tomatoes audience ratings [emoji534]