Canada's Lib-Dems?

[Captain.Sassy]

So...

Apparently there's rumblings about 'uniting the left' in Canada, i.e. the dippers and the grits joining forces into one big leftish party.
There are still pissed off old-timey PC conservatives in Central Canada that are now forced to vote for a social conservative party because of the merger on the right. I worry that combining the Liberals and the NDP would lead to a lot of ex-liberals voting Conservative or staying home, and maybe even some dippers voting Green.

When the majority of the population is decidedly opposed to the ideology of the party that's in power, something's amiss. I still think that PR is the way to go rather than trying to mash these guys together.

Also Ignatieff's talk about how the parties should hotly contest each seat and then talk about a coalition post-election shows that he's at best mentally retarded. This is exactly the problem we're trying to avoid here, Miggy! Urging a continuation of partisan politicking between the left and the centre-left won't ameliorate this situation.

 

[Horatius]

There are still pissed off old-timey PC conservatives in Central Canada that are now forced to vote for a social conservative party because of the merger on the right.

Yeah, that would be me. I voted strategically the last two elections in hopes of a conservative minority, hoping they'd get their heads out of their asses, but I've now pretty much given up hoping for that, based on their record so far.

Also Ignatieff's talk about how the parties should hotly contest each seat and then talk about a coalition post-election shows that he's at best mentally retarded. This is exactly the problem we're trying to avoid here, Miggy! Urging a continuation of partisan politicking between the left and the centre-left won't ameliorate this situation.

And of course,this sort of stupidity is why I don't want to vote Liberal, either. Can we draft Joe Clark as a new Liberal leader, maybe?

If the Greens would start backing nuclear power, I'd probably vote for them....

 

[Stacko]

Can we draft Joe Clark as a new Liberal leader, maybe?

Joe Who?

 

[Madalch]

Joe Who?

Yes! Exactly!

 

[quixotecoyote]

Yes! Exactly!

No, he's playing centerfield.

 

[Blue Mountain]

No, he's playing centerfield centre field.

Fixed that for you--this is a Canadian thread, after all

What I find ironic is the left in Canada now has the same problem the right had when the PCs and Reform were battling for seats: the vote's split too many ways, so it's easy for a minority party to end up forming the government. On the left we have Liberals, NDP, Green. In Quebec the Bloc is taking seats that would otherwise go to the Liberals. Net result is right-wing Harper can form a government despite the fact nearly 70% of Canadians don't share his views.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

/\/\/\
Exactly. PR is so very necessary! I don't know if a NDP-Liberal mash up party could work, given the disagreements between these two parties. Better to just have proportional representation with minority governments and let bills pass or fail according to the will of the people (I'd also favour separate elections for ministers).

In any case, Canadians may be too apprehensive about any kind of changes to the electoral system (or any change at all, really- look at how succesfully the Conservatives were able to paint the last proposed coalition as a 'coup'). So a merged party (which incidentally is being vehemently denied by everyone apparently) might be the only option, really.

 

[Jetfire]

Wouldn't political reform mean that dreaded C-word that Canadians dread... a Constitutional Amendment?

Personally, I'd love to see Prop. Representation up here, but if it involves the Constitution, it's pretty much dead in the water for another few decades at least. (Until the next generation becomes Politically powerful basically)

 

[D'rok]

Wouldn't political reform mean that dreaded C-word that Canadians dread... a Constitutional Amendment?

Personally, I'd love to see Prop. Representation up here, but if it involves the Constitution, it's pretty much dead in the water for another few decades at least. (Until the next generation becomes Politically powerful basically)

Electoral reform doesn't require a constitutional amendment. Just the political will to do it.

 

[lomiller]

On of the best political reforms would be to forbid the party leader in the house from vetoing the people selected to run in the ridings. As things stand now you can’t even be elected without the consent of the party leader so dissent within a party is almost impossible.

Changing this would certainly not require any type of constitutional amendment.

 

[stilicho]

So...

Apparently there's rumblings about 'uniting the left' in Canada, i.e. the dippers and the grits joining forces into one big leftish party.

Who is proposing this? The problem facing the Liberals and NDP is not the Conservative Party but the BQ. If you could appeal to a small portion of those who elect BQ MPs then you could oust the Conservatives in short order. The Liberals are the only national party with a chance of doing that, which effectively scotches any so-called "united left".

Another possible strategy that is only usable by the Liberals and Conservatives is to run only one candidate in winnable Quebec ridings. The NDP isn't and never has been a factor in Quebec.

 

[stilicho]

Wouldn't political reform mean that dreaded C-word that Canadians dread... a Constitutional Amendment?

Personally, I'd love to see Prop. Representation up here, but if it involves the Constitution, it's pretty much dead in the water for another few decades at least. (Until the next generation becomes Politically powerful basically)

Whenever anyone mentions Prop Rep, I simply ask them if they really want our country run like Israel, where some five-member extremist party can dominate the political platform.

And I'm a Westerner.

 

[stilicho]

On of the best political reforms would be to forbid the party leader in the house from vetoing the people selected to run in the ridings. As things stand now you can’t even be elected without the consent of the party leader so dissent within a party is almost impossible.

Changing this would certainly not require any type of constitutional amendment.

Then you'd have to forbid busing in carpetbaggers for the candidate selection meetings. There's a very good reason for those vetoes; I think we've all witnessed the effects of unbridled and enthusiastic democracy ballot-box corruption in action.

 

[D'rok]

Whenever anyone mentions Prop Rep, I simply ask them if they really want our country run like Israel, where some five-member extremist party can dominate the political platform.

And I'm a Westerner.

PR in Canada would more likely look like New Zealand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_New_Zealand

We have absolutely nothing in common with Israel.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Whenever anyone mentions Prop Rep, I simply ask them if they really want our country run like Israel, where some five-member extremist party can dominate the political platform.

Why not ask if they want a system like Germany's, which too has PR and shaky coalition governments that fall apart every nine months?

 

[stilicho]

PR in Canada would more likely look like New Zealand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_New_Zealand

We have absolutely nothing in common with Israel.

What do we have in common with NZ? I don't know much about their constitution or their provincial responsibilities but I'd guess it's not even close. Do they have a sizeable province that votes in a bloc against the federal government? Do they have something akin to "western alienation" there? Who is their Louis Riel?

@Blue Mountain:

Why not ask if they want a system like Germany's, which too has PR and shaky coalition governments that fall apart every nine months?

I choose Israel when talking to the Prop Rep people because it hits home faster.

 

[D'rok]

What do we have in common with NZ? I don't know much about their constitution or their provincial responsibilities but I'd guess it's not even close. Do they have a sizeable province that votes in a bloc against the federal government? Do they have something akin to "western alienation" there? Who is their Louis Riel?

Westminster system. Constitutional monarchy. Parliamentary democracy. Responsible government. British Commonwealth. Mix of written/unwritten constitution. They come from exactly the same roots as we do. They have successfully reformed their electoral system and their senate (abolished) while we have merely talked about it. They are a blueprint for us.

There is no common ground between us and Israel.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Westminster system. Constitutional monarchy. Parliamentary democracy. Responsible government. British Commonwealth. Mix of written/unwritten constitution. They come from exactly the same roots as we do. They have successfully reformed their electoral system and their senate (abolished) while we have merely talked about it. They are a blueprint for us.

However, I think there are significant regional differences in Canada that New Zealand doesn't have. I wonder if a proportional representation system would end up looking more like Belgium or even Italy, where regional differences tend to significantly undermine attempts to put governments together.

 

[stilicho]

Westminster system. Constitutional monarchy. Parliamentary democracy. Responsible government. British Commonwealth. Mix of written/unwritten constitution. They come from exactly the same roots as we do. They have successfully reformed their electoral system and their senate (abolished) while we have merely talked about it. They are a blueprint for us.

There is no common ground between us and Israel.

However, I think there are significant regional differences in Canada that New Zealand doesn't have. I wonder if a proportional representation system would end up looking more like Belgium or even Italy, where regional differences tend to significantly undermine attempts to put governments together.

With all due respect, I think the cultural comparisons between Canada and New Zealand are nonsense. The history is entirely different as are the demographics. I appreciate more the comparison with Belgium or even the former Yugoslavia.

Frankly, Prop Rep is only championed in Canada by extremists or those who feel they are disenfranchised. They look at the government, decide it's unfair, and do a pencil and napkin configuration of what it "should" look like. As it is, both the Conservatives and the Liberals are currently trying to figure out how to dislodge the BQ from its strangehold in Quebec.

I think the Conservatives are secretly quite content with the BQ doing whatever it does best. And, really, it does serve the interests of all Canadians to continue to have a Conservative minority in power, balanced by the interests of what should be a powerless fringe party. I can see this situation lasting for a considerable time.

 

[D'rok]

With all due respect, I think the cultural comparisons between Canada and New Zealand are nonsense. The history is entirely different as are the demographics. I appreciate more the comparison with Belgium or even the former Yugoslavia.

Frankly, Prop Rep is only championed in Canada by extremists or those who feel they are disenfranchised. They look at the government, decide it's unfair, and do a pencil and napkin configuration of what it "should" look like. As it is, both the Conservatives and the Liberals are currently trying to figure out how to dislodge the BQ from its strangehold in Quebec.

I think the Conservatives are secretly quite content with the BQ doing whatever it does best. And, really, it does serve the interests of all Canadians to continue to have a Conservative minority in power, balanced by the interests of what should be a powerless fringe party. I can see this situation lasting for a considerable time.

I'm sorry but this is an uninformed and frankly idiotic post.

Canada has more in common with Yugolsavia than with a fellow British Commonwealth country that has the same system of government? Give your head a shake. NZ's reforms were made for precisely the reasons that ours are being discussed. Their solutions are relevant to us. War, genocide and forced balkanization patrolled by the UN are not. Get real.

PR is only championed by extremists? Please. It has been discussed and studied at the highest levels of government and at the behest of government. Like here for example. There have been several referendums on it at the provincial level. It's coming in some form, sooner or later.

And no, it does not serve the interests of all Canadians to be governed by social conservatives and fundamentalist christians who are at the fringe of Canadian civil society and whose party lacks the support of ~70% of voters. It would serve the interests of all Canadians if representation in parliament was proportional to the preferences of the voters. Then all voices could be heard, and coalition and/or cooperation would be the norm.