Canada may exit Kyoto pact to save $$$$$

Pure head-in-the-sand denialism. There's absolutely no way a power source that requires thousands of times the cost in material resources out-competes nuclear.

This is like AGW denial. Only without the meticulous attention to detail and respect for the scientific method.

I'm pretty sure the problem is I can cut a check tomorrow and have Enercon build me a turbine and have it generating electricity next year, but Radix hasn't licensed a single unit to date. I don't see how you can get around that?
 
I'm pretty sure the problem is I can cut a check tomorrow and have Enercon build me a turbine and have it generating electricity next year, but Radix hasn't licensed a single unit to date. I don't see how you can get around that?

I used the BTG design purely as an illustration. The little stick figure showing the size of the reactors helps illustrate the scales involved. You can use any existing reactor and the scale of the waste involved won't change. To build enough E-126's to match the output under optimal conditions of just one of Darlingtons reactor cores would require enough raw materials to build seven USS Nimitz Class Aircraft Carriers.

All of which blows away lomillers claim the market is somehow going to continually choose to spend a thousand times the material resources for 70% less generating capacity.

Wind and solar are in the middle of a hyperinflated economically unsustainable bubble. Our best hope is that when it pops, there will be something left over to build some real energy infrastructure with.
 
I used the BTG design purely as an illustration. The little stick figure showing the size of the reactors helps illustrate the scales involved. You can use any existing reactor and the scale of the waste involved won't change. To build enough E-126's to match the output under optimal conditions of just one of Darlingtons reactor cores would require enough raw materials to build seven USS Nimitz Class Aircraft Carriers.

All of which blows away lomillers claim the market is somehow going to continually choose to spend a thousand times the material resources for 70% less generating capacity.

Wind and solar are in the middle of a hyperinflated economically unsustainable bubble. Our best hope is that when it pops, there will be something left over to build some real energy infrastructure with.

Yes, but the cost of renewables is in materials (recyclable ones mind you) and the cost of nuclear is in licensing. Radix says the yearly licensing on a reactor could be upwards of 5M a year (that says nothing of the 50M in upfront costs for licensing). That buys a lot of steel.
 
Yes, but the cost of renewables is in materials (recyclable ones mind you) and the cost of nuclear is in licensing. Radix says the yearly licensing on a reactor could be upwards of 5M a year (that says nothing of the 50M in upfront costs for licensing). That buys a lot of steel.

And that's a problem of political policy, not basic economics. People invest in wind farms because the government has introduced artificial barriers to cost-effective nuclear energy. It's not really the reactor operator's fault that all of its cost savings are eaten up by government fees, instead of being passed on to consumers.

Remove licensing from the equation (or impose the same licensing fees on wind farms), and *then* we'll talk about how much steel you want for your energy solution.
 
Remove licensing from the equation (or impose the same licensing fees on wind farms), and *then* we'll talk about how much steel you want for your energy solution.

I don't know if that's possible without some serious global warming. The difference between a windmill blowing up and a nuclear plant blowing up will always make nuke the more $erious risk.
 
I don't know if that's possible without some serious global warming. The difference between a windmill blowing up and a nuclear plant blowing up will always make nuke the more $erious risk.

Fair enough. I was drifting off the point anyway.

The point being that while some aspects of nuclear power may have higher costs than other forms of power, one of those aspects is not, as previously suggested in this thread, materials.
 
Fair enough. I was drifting off the point anyway.

The point being that while some aspects of nuclear power may have higher costs than other forms of power, one of those aspects is not, as previously suggested in this thread, materials.

I wouldn't think so, not unless you're using some modified definition {materials} that includes R&D, personnel and licensing.
 
Fair enough. I was drifting off the point anyway.

The point being that while some aspects of nuclear power may have higher costs than other forms of power, one of those aspects is not, as previously suggested in this thread, materials.

I don't know of anyone who was talking about material costs except for SOT as bluster to avoid admitting the high costs involved with developing nuclear and the non financial viability of thorium. Unless I missed something...
 
I don't know of anyone who was talking about material costs except for SOT as bluster to avoid admitting the high costs involved with developing nuclear and the non financial viability of thorium. Unless I missed something...

You missed commenting on the safety aspect of nuclear after raising the issue and being shown to be wrong ...... again. :D
 
Yes, but the cost of renewables is in materials (recyclable ones mind you) and the cost of nuclear is in licensing. Radix says the yearly licensing on a reactor could be upwards of 5M a year (that says nothing of the 50M in upfront costs for licensing). That buys a lot of steel.
And that's a problem of political policy, not basic economics. People invest in wind farms because the government has introduced artificial barriers to cost-effective nuclear energy. It's not really the reactor operator's fault that all of its cost savings are eaten up by government fees, instead of being passed on to consumers.

Remove licensing from the equation (or impose the same licensing fees on wind farms), and *then* we'll talk about how much steel you want for your energy solution.

And that brings us back to France. They didn't just start grinding through the paper work, they went nuclear on nuclear:

As a direct result of the 1973 oil crisis, on March 6, 1974 Prime Minister Pierre Messmer unexpectedly announced what became known as the 'Messmer Plan', a huge nuclear power program aimed at generating all of France's electricity from nuclear power.[9] At the time of the oil crisis most of France's electricity came from foreign oil, and while it was strong in heavy engineering capabilities, France had few indigenous energy resources,[2]

The announcement of the Messmer Plan, which was imposed without public or parliamentary debate,[10][11] also led to the foundation of the Groupement des scientifiques pour l'information sur l'énergie nucléaire (Association of Scientists for Information on Nuclear Energy), formed after around 4,000 scientists signed a petition of concern over the government's action, known as the Appeal of the 400 after the 400 scientists who initially signed it.[10]

The plan envisaged the construction of around 80 nuclear plants by 1985 and a total of 170 plants by 2000.[10] Work on the first three plants, at Tricastin, Gravelines, and Dampierre started the same year[9] and France installed 56 reactors over the next 15 years.[12]
​

"Economic reality on the ground" is by no means set in stone. All we need is a political leader, or small hand full thereof, with a spine of steel and balls of brass (how weird is it to say that of the french?).
 
I never understood what that Kyoto crap should be good for. For one, as long as not _every_singly_country_ on this planet is included, it has no real effect anyways. There simply is no sense in having a small country, say like Germany, put enormous amounts of money into that, while big countries like China simply don't give a damn.

Then i have serious doubt about the effects of reaching such artificial goals/numbers on CO2 emission limits. At least when it comes to the price that one has to pay for it. I'm thinking that that money would be better spent into developing technology and methods to simply adapt ourselves to such a change. If that change really happens in the magnitude they claim. So far they have reduced their claims about the amount of temperature rise, etc.

And then, all that "saving the planet" hypocritical claptrap. The planet simply does not care about us. Never has, never will. There is no planet to save. There is no nature to save. Way over 99% of all species that ever existed are already extinct. Sooner or later we will be among them. There has been life and climate and nature way, way before we as a species came to be. And it will still be there way after we have gone extinct.

And then, climate changes aren't anything new either. It's constantly changing. Sure, we may have an influence on that, now. But so did other lifeforms in the past as well.

In reality, all that those "save the planet" folks really want is to uphold the status quo. They are anti-change. They want to lock everything in the state it is now. Not going to happen, no matter how hard we try.

Or as George Carlin put it:



And damn, he's right.

Greetings,

Chris
 
I never understood what that Kyoto crap should be good for. For one, as long as not _every_singly_country_ on this planet is included, it has no real effect anyways. There simply is no sense in having a small country, say like Germany, put enormous amounts of money into that, while big countries like China simply don't give a damn.

Then i have serious doubt about the effects of reaching such artificial goals/numbers on CO2 emission limits. At least when it comes to the price that one has to pay for it. I'm thinking that that money would be better spent into developing technology and methods to simply adapt ourselves to such a change. If that change really happens in the magnitude they claim. So far they have reduced their claims about the amount of temperature rise, etc.

And then, all that "saving the planet" hypocritical claptrap. The planet simply does not care about us. Never has, never will. There is no planet to save. There is no nature to save. Way over 99% of all species that ever existed are already extinct. Sooner or later we will be among them. There has been life and climate and nature way, way before we as a species came to be. And it will still be there way after we have gone extinct.

And then, climate changes aren't anything new either. It's constantly changing. Sure, we may have an influence on that, now. But so did other lifeforms in the past as well.

In reality, all that those "save the planet" folks really want is to uphold the status quo. They are anti-change. They want to lock everything in the state it is now. Not going to happen, no matter how hard we try.

Or as George Carlin put it:



And damn, he's right.

Greetings,

Chris


seconded.:)
 
You know you're dealing with towering intellects when people quote dead comedians as a response to complex policy issues. Real towering intellects :rolleyes:
 
You know you're dealing with towering intellects when people quote dead comedians as a response to complex policy issues. Real towering intellects :rolleyes:

None the less he's got a point. Things change, picking some temperature or number of species or number of glaciers you think is optimal and then trying to maintain that number, in the grand scheme of things is very egocentric.
 
None the less he's got a point.

Not a valid point he doesn't.

Things change, picking some temperature or number of species or number of glaciers you think is optimal and then trying to maintain that number, in the grand scheme of things is very egocentric.

Good thing noone is doing that then, isn't it? The only optimal temperature is that which has persisted throughout the Holocene, the epoch that spans the entire scope of human civilisation, the only reason it is optimal is because our civilisation evolved to suit those conditions. We change those conditions and the staple crops that have evolved alongside us will no longer grow in the places where we need them to grow.

The planet will be just fine. Life will continue to prosper. But our species may very well not prosper in greenhouse earth conditions.

It's got nothing to do with arbitrarily picking a temperature and everything to do with not needlessly altering the climate, which without human intervention can be expected to keep on keeping on with Holocene conditions for the next 15,000 years or so.
 
None the less he's got a point. Things change, picking some temperature or number of species or number of glaciers you think is optimal and then trying to maintain that number, in the grand scheme of things is very egocentric.

What's wrong with being "egocentric"? If it's in our interests to maintain the climactic status quo, why wouldn't we do just that?
 
You know you're dealing with towering intellects when people quote dead comedians as a response to complex policy issues. Real towering intellects :rolleyes:

Ah, so you must have missed all that stuff called "text" that i put there before that quote.

Any anyway, what's your problem with it? That he is dead, that he was a comedian, or both? Judging from the tone of your response, it's pretty clear that it must have hit some nerves spot-on.

Greetings,

Chris
 
Not a valid point he doesn't.

Depends on whether you understood the points made, or not. Seems you did not understand them.

Good thing noone is doing that then, isn't it? The only optimal temperature is that which has persisted throughout the Holocene, the epoch that spans the entire scope of human civilisation, the only reason it is optimal is because our civilisation evolved to suit those conditions.

You are not really trying to tell us that the climate and temperature was constant and all the same throughout that timespan, do you?

The best you can do is guesstimate what it was during those periods. Simply because we have no real and exact data-logging from those periods.

Anyways, there is no "only optimal temperature". If that would be true, most parts of this globe where people live right now would be devoid of people. Simply because the variations in climate and average temperature on this single globe vary enormously.

Or do you really think that you have the same average climate and temperature in Africa that you have in North Europe?

We change those conditions and the staple crops that have evolved alongside us will no longer grow in the places where we need them to grow.

See, there you are making that mistake. We do not "need to grow" them in any special place at all. At most, we _want_ them to grow there, because it's damn convenient for us. Not because it's the only place where it can grow at all.

The planet will be just fine. Life will continue to prosper. But our species may very well not prosper in greenhouse earth conditions.

So what? The only thing you can be sure of is that we as a species will go extinct. No matter what we do, that will happen. And then, who says that we will not prosper until then? Extrapolating from the current situation into the future, claiming all will be bad if we do nothing, simply based on the fact that things will change is pretty stupid.

Pretty much all things change. Assuming that stuff will remain the same until some point in the future, and than basing a conclusion on that assumption is, well, dishonest at best. Just look what changes of all kinds there have been in the last 200 years. No one 200 years ago could have predicted those changes, let alone judge if they have been for the better or not basing on the current state of affairs back then.

It's got nothing to do with arbitrarily picking a temperature and everything to do with not needlessly altering the climate, which without human intervention can be expected to keep on keeping on with Holocene conditions for the next 15,000 years or so.

Wrong. It has to do with exactly that. It is what they want us to do: Spending bucketloads of money into maintaining or reaching some arbitrarily chosen temperature and/or CO2 levels. No matter how hard some wish to achieve that, the climate will change anyways. Always has, always will.

Who is to judge if such "alterations" are needless? Who is to judge what the outcome of those influences will be exactly? Heck, we can't even really predict the local weather for the next few days. It would be pretentious to claim that we can predict how the climate would be in a few decades or centuries. Just look at all those shiny and pretty models that they made. With all their fancy supercomputers, no less. The only thing that is for sure is that those models are faulty. Otherwise they wouldn't have to correct the extent of temperature change and other stuff downwards all the time.

Yes, we may have an effect on the climate. No, no one can say with certainty what the effects will really be. Simply because we have a sample size of only one. All we can do is speculate and extrapolate, if we really want to. And so far that has lead us to predictions that have to be constantly corrected. Corrected towards the "not as bad as previously thought" end of the scale.

No one can say for certain that the current changes wouldn't have been similar or the same without us. All we have is a correlation. All the attempts to make that into a causation so far have shown to be much less than exact. Otherwise those corrections wouldn't be needed.

And besides all that. What do you think would be the benefit on a few countries spending all that money into preventing any change, making the cost of living much much higher for everyone, while some other country increases it's emissions many times? What good is it if i pay a thousand bucks to "save" a ton of CO2, while some guy in South America will increas his emissions by 5 tons?

What do you want to tell those people? "Hey, look, we released tons and tons of CO2, but we are really friggin wealthy now because of that. And because we are bored, we want you to limit your emissions to save our wealth. No, you can not build up a decent industry. And no, forget about reaching our level industrialization and wealth if it involves releasing some CO2. Your bad luck that you have to catch up. Bye!"

Really?

I stand by it. I think all that money is much better spent on developing strategies to adapt to those changes, instead of putting them into the futile attempt to prevent those changes. Simply because we can not prevent those changes. Too many nations with too many different needs and plans are involved. Unless one can build a global dictatorship that rules over the whole world, there is no chance in hell that any such thing will be successful in the grand scheme of things.

Carlin is quite right when he says that we are unable to really care for ourselves and the ones next to us, but claim to be able to care for the planet.

Make global peace a reality. Have poverty and starving disappear. Remove all the dictators on this planet, and install something resembling democracy in their countries. Make sure that every single person on this planet has enough to eat, gets some decent education, and has a decent standard of living.

Once you achieved that, then we may talk again about caring for our climate. Because unless you achieve that, any attempt to get a "solution" for the "climate problem" worked out and implemented is worse than herding a truckload of fleas. Expensive and futile.

Greetings,

Chris
 
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Anyways, there is no "only optimal temperature". If that would be true, most parts of this globe where people live right now would be devoid of people. Simply because the variations in climate and average temperature on this single globe vary enormously.
How does that follow at all? "Only optimal temperature" doesn't in any way imply "only viable temperature for human life", it simply implies that there is a temperature which is better, from our perspective, than others.

Moreover, in context it implies an average global temperature that is optimal, not that the temperature everywhere on the globe should be the same.

Why is this temperature better than others? Because it's the one we've (meaning life on this planet, and human life in particular) already adapted to. It's the one that all our infrastructure is built upon. If the climate changes, ecosystems will have to adapt, some will migrate northward, others will die out, etc. Similarly our farming practices will also have to change: farmers who are now accustomed to growing wheat will have to change to rice (or whatever), which means major changes in their way of life. Those changes come at a cost.

The point being? All else being equal, change costs money. Even if the total potential output is the same, rearranging what grows where, what industry is located in what country, etc. means major investments in infrastructure (and the scrapping of a great deal of same).

Now, it's possible that all else is not equal, and that the benefits of a particular change outweigh the costs involved in changing industry and agricultural practices, but I haven't seen evidence for such a positive total increase in value due to climate change.

If we don't know either way, that's fine, but it leaves us with that total value as likely lower as higher, and again the only certainty is the cost involved in the change.

That cost, by the way, is born by ecosystems as well as by human industry and agriculture. The only difference being that they are likely in an even worse position to deal with them, as they lack the ability to plan, study the problem, and even come up with solutions. At best they can get lucky (ie, the northern boarder of a forest becomes a better habitat as quickly as the southern boarder because a worse one, and the forest simply migrates north.
 

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