Canada may exit Kyoto pact to save $$$$$

BTW, I found a great quote you're just gonna love:

There's not one 'silver bullet' to solve the climate and energy crises. There's two, and they're made of depleted uranium and thorium.
Dr. Barry Brook

Chair of Climate Science at University of Adelaide > anonymous internet schmuck
 
Sure thing, fella. I'll see you in five years. If thorium has progressed any then I'll happily admit I was wrong.

Who is talking about thorium?

The last reactor build completed in France was in 1995.

They have several new ones under construction, but the low carbon emissions cited in Dr. Brooks statistics are what they have now.
 
So many fallacies, I'm not sure where to begin.

Perhaps in order? It would be the logical thing to do. ;)

For starters, the heating fallacy. Canada can make the same cuts that other OECD countries commit to without sacrificing their heating or even making it more expensive.

You're confusing "fallacy" with "joke". Yes it's a joke that Canada is cold, but not a fallacy. The number of HVAC degree days here is a scientific fact.

Now if people are telling you we'll meet Kyoto emissions once the temperature rises and the number of HVAC days goes down, that would be a fallacy.

The sort of schemes being put into place under the international framework are things like pricing carbon so as to achieve modest cuts while at the same time sending a market signal to stimulate development of greater efficiencies and investments into renewables.

So what? We've got tons of renewables and alternatives already, people can't afford to heat with electric. Not even in Quebec.

Canada could make cuts by investing itself in rolling out renewable forms of energy, or drive greater efficiencies in the economy by doing things like utilising bio-waste from agriculture into forms of energy.

Being done. Wind and solar, more nuclear and less coal. This isn't doing anything to lower the cost of electric to the point where it's feasible to heat with it and it does very little to reduced the use of fossil fuels in industries like mining, pulp and paper and transportation.

Making cuts in emissions does not mean you have to turn your heating off.

It pretty much does here in Canada. With the added benefit of not wanting to get out of bed in the morning and get in your car to go to work. :p

Second, China. While it's true China's emissions will continue to expand at alarming rates, this is factored into the carbon budget I outlined above, but to accommodate that unstoppable growth in their emissions it makes our task even more urgent.

We may need to go over that again. Including the countries I mentioned and China what are they committed to in the first phase of Kyoto and the second? Then let's compare the anticipated growth in the energy sectors in each compared to Canada and see where we'll be in 25 years. It's my understanding that in 25 years Canada's emissions will be a decimal fraction of those 5 countries.

Because, no matter how unfair you think it is that Canada should have to make cuts while China continues to grow (lets just forget for a moment that a significant portion of China's emissions come from supplying our consumer desires, we've essentially off-shored our emissions there, that's another story), the reality is that China is a juggernaut that will take decades to turn around.

Yah, because China needs the energy to grow, as do all countries including Canada.

If we wait for China then we sink the whole goddamn enterprise, you, me China, everyone.

No what's being realized is nothing matters if China and India don't follow in step.
A second point on China is that it is a fallacy to say they are doing nothing. While still confronted with the stark reality outlined above, China has voluntarily committed to making significant cuts in the intensity of their emissions growth and, from all appearances, are going hell for leather in implementing the strategy to achieve those cuts (much more so than the laggardly action we've seen in the developed world). When they set themselves a target they tend to achieve it. The other thing is investment in clean technology now far outstrips anything in the West, as does their installed capacity of renewable energy.

I don't recall anyone saying that, what we said was they haven't committed to anything. Without their commitment the rest of the world is just making costly token gestures.

China is a juggernaut, it won't be turned around anytime soon, but it IS taking the necessary action to begin the process of turning it around. Which is more than you can say about Canada or Australia.

Not really no. China is just in a better position because they're just beginning to invest in infrastructure.

The whole point of the UNFCC, a point that has underpinned all international agreements on emissions going back to 1990, is that rich industrialised economies need to bring down their emissions and transform their economies, in the process making the required technologies cheaper, and provide the model for the developing world to follow so as not to stifle development and penalise the developing world for a problem that is not of their own making.

Unfortunately in a globalized economy you have to change everyone's economy or it becomes an unfair advantage or disadvantage as the case may be.
The costs for these "economic transformations" are not born out fairly under Kyoto.

Russia has never had a problem with an eco-lobby, they've known about thorium for 50 years, Occam's Razor suggest that the reason has nothing to do with any lobby and rather the tangible technological and economic barriers that render the idea commercially non-viable.

That would be my guess.
 
A couple of infractions issued. More may follow unless you cut out the bickering and name-calling.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
So why shouldn't Australia embrace nuclear as a cheaper more reliable source of energy than those you have listed?
Because it isn't a cheaper,

Wrong again, BP.

A nuclear reactor requires roughly 40 tons of steel and 200 cubic metres of concrete per megawatt of capacity. It will have a 90% capacity factor and usually has a 60 year projected life span.

Wind power requires 400 tons of steel, 800 cubic metres of concrete per megawatt. And has less than 30% capacity factor and a 15 year design lifespan.

Nuclear has 1/10th the steel, 1/4th the concrete, 3 times the up-time and 4 times the design life.

Tell me Mr. Untrained Amatuer Internet Economist™, what does that add up to for you?

more reliable source of energy.

You gotta be frakking kidding me.

Can you predict what any nuclear reactor in the world will be doing next tuesday.

Can you predict if the wind will be blowing next tuesday?

Nuff sed.
 
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Got a real world example here; this is the proposed DEER reactor from Brookhaven Technology Group:
DEERcomparitivesizes.jpg


The one on the left runs at 50 megawatts and is a little less than the size of the cab on a semi-trailer truck.

To match that capacity with wind under optimal conditions, you would need seven Enercon E-126 Wind Turbines

the E-126 is formally available as a windturbine with maximal 7.58 MW output. The weight of the foundation of the turbine tower is about 2,500 t, the tower itself 2,800 t, the machine housing 128 t, the generator 220 t, the rotor (including the blade) 364 t. The total weight is about 6,000 t.​

That's about 42,000 tons of raw materials to build enough wind capacity to match, under optimal conditions, the output of a 40 ton nuclear reactor . To match the reactors output exactly, including non-optimal days, you would need enough steel to build an aircraft carrier and enough concrete to sink it.

I hope you haven't fled the thread because the input of someone who understands economic realities would be helpful.
 
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So when is Canada building all of these super cheap nuclear reactors again? Soon enough to have see decrease in its emission rates by the end of the decade?
 
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So when is Canada building all of these super cheap nuclear reactors again? Soon enough to have see decrease in its emission rates by the end of the decade?

I'm reckoning they will be online quicker than any binding international agreements. :D

Giggle. haha - Oh! (gets breath back)
I made myself laugh that time! I kill me sometimes. :D
 
So when is Canada building all of these super cheap nuclear reactors again?

In appreciate you admitting you were wrong about nuclear not being cheaper.

Soon enough to have see decrease in its emission rates by the end of the decade?

I don't know. When are the US, and everyone else going to start a crash program of reactor construction.

Then there's Germany. The country that invented the most destructive 'isms of the 20th century, and is already producing more than 4 times the CO2/kWh as France, is increasing their carbon output by 300 million tonnes by retiring their reactors in favor of lignite (aka "brown coal", the lowest and dirtiest grade of coal, of which Germany is the worlds biggest user).

Trevor Sikorski, head of environmental market research at London investment bank Barclays Capital, calculates that Germany will emit an extra 300 million tonnes of carbon dioxide between now and 2020. That is more than the annual emissions of Italy and Spain combined under the EU's emissions trading scheme (ETS).

And let's not forget the climate. If EU members do somehow succeed in reducing emission by 335 million tonnes through energy efficiency, all that effort will almost entirely be negated by Germany's additional 300 million tonnes.
​

You may now invite the nation of Germany to self-copulate.
 
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I appreciate you admitting you were wrong about nuclear not being cheaper.

Yes, I fat fingered an extra letter "n" in there. I'm sorry that made the entire sentence illegible for you.

And I answered your question. I said: "I don't know".

No one appears to be engaging in any crash reactor construction programs to combat carbon emissions. And I pointed out that Germany is doing the exact opposite. They are massively increasing their carbon output and abandoning nuclear.
 
I guess we'd better fire up some more coal plants.
 
I guess we'd better fire up some more coal plants.

Because, after all, they're the only two options.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise...-canada-sits-atop-massive-geothermal-resource

A report published by the Geological Survey of Canada last week outlines the huge geothermal energy potential available in the world's second largest country by area. Canada currently has no geothermal electricity generation, but the report says that 100 or so individual geothermal projects could provide a substantial part of the country's baseload power needs.

"Canada's in-place geothermal power exceeds one million times Canada's current electrical consumption,"
the report notes, though also stating most of that available power could not actually be produced. "Environmental impacts of geothermal development are relatively minor compared to other energy developments, however there are still key issues to be addressed....Geothermal installations have the potential to displace other more costly and environmentally damaging technologies."

There is at least 5000 megawatts of available geothermal power in various parts of British Columbia, Alberta, and the Yukon. What's more, the report's authors write, the cost of delivering geothermal power is expected to rival the costs of coal within 15 years or so. The limitations of developing the huge geothermal resource have a lot to do with location: Some of the most promising areas are far away from load centers, and the costs of developing huge transmission corridors to bring the power to where it is needed would make such projects unfeasible. Still, there is enough located in accessible areas to make a big difference.
 
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Not reliable enough? Not dense enough? LMFAO! :D

As for cheap, maybe if you actually dispassionately and open-mindendly read the sources given to you, rather than dismissing them out of hand because they conflict with your agenda to ush nuclear as the ONLY option then you see things like this:

What's more, the report's authors write, the cost of delivering geothermal power is expected to rival the costs of coal within 15 years or so.

Sounds as realistic if not more so than any time frame I've seen for getting nuclear online.
 
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