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Can pressure be negative?

That's exactly what happens. As I said, Beta is the fundamental quantity, not T. And if Beta passes smoothly through zero, then T=1/kBeta will do exactly the sort of thing your graph shows.



It's wrong. SOME zeros and infinities are forbidden, but not all. Beta can (and does) go to zero in actual systems, and hence T goes to infinity in actual systems. That isn't simply a mathematical exercise.



Zero pressure is not in any way problematic. It's easy to achieve, and easy to tune through. Like I said, take a sealed piston filled completely with water, and pull on it. You'll get 0 absolute pressure quite easily. and can even go to negative absolute pressure.

Beta can go wherever it likes so long as the average statistical ensemble of matter does not equal zero I don't give a toss and it's all semantics.

There is no such thing as a perfect vacuum even down to the planck scale, energy is non zero, nor is there at least hypothetically an absolute zero for kg/m^2 amount of space-time matter is all I said. I don't think that is at all contentious.

Infinities may exist in maths but anything with one in is wrong and or paradoxical if it is meant to model something real, instead of being a limit. That is just a fact the law of thermodynamics forbids. A singularity, the energy of a system all just wrong if they contain a non renormalised infinity. You can't multiply infinity by infinity in the singularity either its just wrong and you need other maths to sort it out.

There is a difference between maths and reality believe it or not. Maths is not real, honestly its just a model and a concept.

This is the same sort of mathematical stupidity that leads people to say that at c the photon does not experience time. That is false, what we say is time for a photon is undefined, otherwise its bloody stupid and you end up saying stupid things like: the photon exists at all points in its path whatever the distance it travels which clearly violates its own axioms and makes the wave function infinite at t for all points in t, which is of no practical use really. The maths works for the Lorentz transforms only if we accept the peculiarities of maths axioms. Reality is not maths any more than maths is reality it is a tool and it was invented not discovered.

To put it simply so that even mathmos can understand it, at some point on the graph where reality meets bs there is an undefined.

Most physics at a fundamental level these days has forgone linear models for probabilistic ones. Hence the probability of a particle having 0 energy at time t = 0 is one way of saying it or at the limit of infinity it is 0 and approaches it asymptotically is another, best not to get too innured in the implications of something that is merely axiomatic anyway and is only proved by its own assumptions. Hell that may well be the reason why physics is so interesting atm, and also so very very slightly and asymptotically just wrong.
 
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Infinities may exist in maths but anything with one in is wrong and or paradoxical if it is meant to model something real, instead of being a limit.

That's simply not true. I gave an example: temperature. When it's infinite, that means something quite real, and quite specific: it means that entropy doesn't change with changing energy. This is not some mere mathematical fiction. It is, however, the mathematical result of the definition of temperature. But then, if you thought temperature was defined in physics other than mathematically, you would be wrong.

That is just a fact the law of thermodynamics forbids.

That is also wrong. Thermodynamics provides no prohibition on infinite temperatures. Many systems cannot reach infinite temperature because their entropy is unbounded with energy (and hence, you cannot reach an energy where the entropy becomes constant), but not all.

There is a difference between maths and reality believe it or not. Maths is not real, honestly its just a model and a concept.

To the extent that temperature itself is just a model and a concept, sure. But if those are the grounds on which you're appealing, well, you've rather lost the point.

To put it simply so that even mathmos can understand it, at some point on the graph where reality meets bs there is an undefined.

Except I've already provided an example of where this math meets reality, and it's NOT BS. Negative temperatures have been observed. They're quite real. You can't avoid them unless you throw out the standard thermodynamics concept of temperature entirely, but there's absolutely no reason or need to do so. Seriously, what exactly do you think the problem with negative temperatures is? What contradiction do you think accepting them would create?
 
Negative Pressure II

Guth however specifically tried to get a *VACUUM* (not another object) to convey "negative pressure" to his mass/energy thingy. There's nothing in a vacuum at best case, and "positive pressure" and positive kinetic energy in all real life scenarios. His 'vacuum' cannot possible hold "negative pressure" of any sort that might interact with that mass/energy thingy.

Your criticism of Guth is entirely wrong. Your statement that "There's nothing in a vacuum at best case" is false, so you are starting with a false premise. Furthermore, you do not know what the word "pressure" means. For example ...

Guth didn't have any pistons, no second objects, nothing of the sort. He had nothing but a "vacuum" that may or may not contain any photons, neutrinos, or other kinetic energy. It's pretty much impossible to actually achieve a ZERO kinetic energy vacuum, but assuming you achieved it somehow, you'd end up with 'zero' pressure in the vacuum. That ZERO point is the LOWEST POSSIBLE KINETIC ENERGY STATE of the vacuum. Guth's magic negative pressure *VACUUM* has nothing to do with the attraction of multiple objects INSIDE of a vacuum. You're confusing two separate issues.

The confusion is entirely yours. You are constantly on about kinetic energy and particles. But the pressure that Guth was talking about has nothing at all to do with kinetic energy and particles. He is talking about the pressure of a scalar field. That's why I say you don't know what the word "pressure" means. That's also the reason why your statement from above, that "There's nothing in a vacuum at best case" is false, because while the vacuum might be free of particles and kinetic energy, it can certainly be filled to the brim with non-kinetic energy, in the form of scalar fields, and observational evidence from both cosmology and the laboratory certainly imply that this is in fact the case. I already discussed this a few days ago, but my post evidently went unnoticed.

There is no such thing as negative kinetic energy or negative pressure in a vacuum.

It is difficult to know the answer when one does not understand the question. In this case the question from the OP is two-fold, one being "can pressure in the classical sense be negative?" and the other being "can pressure in the cosmological sense be negative?" Understanding either question requires knowledge of the definition of the word "pressure". Absent such knowledge, one does not understand the question and therefore can hardly be expect to answer reliably.

The negativity of pressure in the classical sense is fairly easy to understand, as long as we realize that negative pressure quite literally sucks. If a spherical membrane shrinks because it is being pushed in by outside pressure, that is an example of positive pressure applied to the surface. If a spherical membrane shrinks because it is being pulled in from below, that is an example of negative pressure being applied to the surface. One can see that in the general case, any pump works by applying negative pressure to that which is being pumped.

But the cosmological case requires a bit more insight. Mozina's response above assumes a classical, particle based definition for both "kinetic energy" and "pressure". Given that particular definition, then obviously his conclusion is correct. After all, if we have a true vacuum, then we have no particles and therefore no kinetic energy. And if we have no particles or kinetic energy, then clearly we can have no particle based pressure at all. However, this conclusion is based on the faulty premise that his chosen definition for "pressure" is correct. In fact that is a false assumption, and therefore the conclusions based thereon should be viewed with suspicion, and assumed to be false, in the absence of a strong argument to the contrary.

One must be aware that not all energy is "kinetic" and therefore neither is all pressure "kinetic" or particle based. Fields carry energy, and therefore pressure as well, despite the complete absence of all things "kinetic". Indeed, the pressure from a scalar field is nicely defined for us by Steven Weinberg in his book, Cosmology (Oxford University Press, 2008), on page 527, equation B.67:

[latex] p = -\dfrac{1}{2}g^\mu^\nu \frac{\partial {\phi}}{\partial {X^\mu}} \frac{\partial {\phi}}{\partial {X^\nu}} - V(\phi) [/latex]

In tis equation, [latex]\phi[/latex] is the scalar field and [latex]V(\phi)[/latex] is the potential for the field. Of course there are ways to simplify this expression by carrying out the indicated operations in the context of a cosmological model. For a general relativistic, expanding universe, we find equivalent formulations in Weinberg's Cosmology, pages 8-9, and in Scott Dodelson's Modern Cosmology (Academic Press, 2003), page 151 (section 1.5.1, "Negative Pressure"). Dodelson's equation 6.22 is:

[latex] \dfrac{1}{a} \frac{d^2 a}{dt^2} = -\frac{4\pi G}{3} (\rho + 3P)[/latex]

Quoting from Dodelson: "Acceleration is defined to mean that d2a/dt2 is positive. For this to happen, the terms in parentheses on the right must be negative. So inflation requires

[latex]P[/latex] < [latex] -\dfrac{\rho}{3}[/latex].

Since the energy density is always positive, the pressure must be negative. This result is perhaps not surprising: we saw back in Chapter 2 that the accelerated expansion which causes supernovae to appear very faint can be caused only by dark energy with negative pressure. Inflation was apparently driven by a similar form of energy, one with P < 0. To reiterate what we emphasized in Chapter 2, negative pressure is not something with which we have any familiarity. Nonrelativistic matter has small positive pressure proportional to temperature divided by mass, while a relativistic gas has [latex]P = +\dfrac{\rho}{3}[/latex], again positive. So whatever it is that drives inflation is not ordinary matter or radiation.
" (End Quote)

It must be remembered that observation leads us to the conclusion that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, which is consistent with physics as we know it only if the pressure of the vacuum is negative, as Dodelson says above. It must also be remembered that observation leads to the conclusion that physics as we know it and the observed behavior of the universe can be made mutually consistent with each other only if there is a period of extreme "inflationary" expansion in the very early infancy of the universe, again driven by negative pressure, as Dodelson says above. There is also a nice discussion of negative pressure in Edward Harrison's book Cosmology: The Science of the Universe (Cambridge University Press, 2000, 2nd edition) on page 369 (section heading: "Universes in Tension: The Strange Worlds of Negative Pressure"), but I will leave that for the reader to pursue.

So, the bottom line for the OP is certainly "yes", pressure can be negative, in both a common practical sense, or a less common cosmological sense. The advent of negative vacuum pressure in cosmology was certainly a surprise but cosmology, like any other scientific pursuit, is dominated by observation (increasingly so in recent decades). We already know that Mozina rejects dark matter & dark energy, though for no particularly good reason. But then we already know that Mozina rejects the foundations of science altogether (e.g., What is "Empirical" Science? III from 1 Feb 2010 and many a post thereafter). His contrary arguments are thus accompanied only by opinion as a justification, while informed and factual arguments are absent, so his position must be considered without merit.

Guth's "pressure", the one that causes the early inflation and the current accelerated expansion of the universe is the pressure of a scalar field, not the pressure of particles with kinetic energy. The same is true for the Casimir effect, where scalar field pressure can be just as negative as it is in the cosmological case.
 
That's simply not true. I gave an example: temperature. When it's infinite, that means something quite real, and quite specific: it means that entropy doesn't change with changing energy. This is not some mere mathematical fiction. It is, however, the mathematical result of the definition of temperature. But then, if you thought temperature was defined in physics other than mathematically, you would be wrong.



That is also wrong. Thermodynamics provides no prohibition on infinite temperatures. Many systems cannot reach infinite temperature because their entropy is unbounded with energy (and hence, you cannot reach an energy where the entropy becomes constant), but not all.



To the extent that temperature itself is just a model and a concept, sure. But if those are the grounds on which you're appealing, well, you've rather lost the point.

No it simply is you show me an experiment that shows a real infinity or a real 0 point and I'll call you et al a liar.

Stop making mathematical axioms reality, you'll understand science better. If you want to make maths real just be a pure mathematician and forgo science. Don't burden me with your semantic waffle it's worthless. I don't care if you think you have defined nothing as something that exists or infinity as something that makes sense in science as anything but a limit, you are still full of **** until you can show me how it applies to a real quantity.

I never at any point claimed negatives didn't exist hell quantum mechanics is based on them or at least the squaring of imaginary or real numbers is in a wave function equation. What are you arguing about. I just said 0 and infinity are concepts, they cannot and will never exist in a physical universe.

What are you trying to make me believe that if you say enough maths nothing exists and more than everything does. You really picked on the wrong person here. I am not buying nothing is anything more than a philosophical concept any more than infinity is no mater if Cantor gets up and raises from his grave and Jesus gives me a flier.

If you want to keep arguing your straw man go for it but I never said anything about negatives I only opined on 0 and infinity. Get over it.

I'm studying physics now and maths, I really don't need someone to come along and make a mockery of everything I learn because they want to make a point that has nothing to do with what I said thanks. It's not going to help me grasp the science or the implications of my subject, so can it. Physics is muddled in contention enough as it is without semantic bs.

Except I've already provided an example of where this math meets reality, and it's NOT BS. Negative temperatures have been observed. They're quite real. You can't avoid them unless you throw out the standard thermodynamics concept of temperature entirely, but there's absolutely no reason or need to do so. Seriously, what exactly do you think the problem with negative temperatures is? What contradiction do you think accepting them would create?

None whatso fricking ever when the hell did I ever say it would? FFS?

Here's what I said in plain bloody English again for the hard of understanding.

me said:
0 in the vacuum seems as likely as 0°K.
 
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No it simply is you show me an experiment that shows a real infinity or a real 0 point and I'll call you et al a liar.
I suggest you measure the acceleration of a stationary object.

Zero is as real a number as 3.14159. I'm not sure why you're denying the scientific relevance of zero, but it looks to me as though you're doing it because you're all riled up and aren't thinking clearly. For example...

Stop making mathematical axioms reality, you'll understand science better. If you want to make maths real just be a pure mathematician and forgo science. Don't burden me with your semantic waffle it's worthless. I don't care if you think you have defined nothing as something that exists or infinity as something that makes sense in science as anything but a limit, you are still full of **** until you can show me how it applies to a real quantity.

I never at any point claimed negatives didn't exist hell quantum mechanics is based on them or at least the squaring of imaginary or real numbers is in a wave function equation. What are you arguing about. I just said 0 and infinity are concepts, they cannot and will never exist in a physical universe.

What are you trying to make me believe that if you say enough maths nothing exists and more than everything does. You really picked on the wrong person here. I am not buying nothing is anything more than a philosophical concept any more than infinity is no mater if Cantor gets up and raises from his grave and Jesus gives me a flier.

If you want to keep arguing your straw man go for it but I never said anything about negatives I only opined on 0 and infinity. Get over it.
All of your arguments against 0 apply equally to negative numbers or to 17 or to 5/8 or to pi. To put it differently, your arguments against the scientific relevance of 0 are no more valid than they would be against the scientific relevance of 17, 5/8, pi, or negative numbers.

Yes, numbers are just concepts, but the concept of numbers is a foundation of modern science. You can be a good scientist without believing that the number 17 exists in the real world, but you can't be a good scientist without understanding the role that numbers such as 17 and 0 play in scientific theories.

I'm studying physics now and maths, I really don't need someone to come along and make a mockery of everything I learn because they want to make a point that has nothing to do with what I said thanks. It's not going to help me grasp the science or the implications of my subject, so can it. Physics is muddled in contention enough as it is without semantic bs.
Then take a deep breath, and drop your semantic arguments.

Physics is hard enough without trying to understand it sans zero.
 
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I suggest you measure the acceleration of a stationary object.

Zero is as real a number as 3.14159. I'm not sure why you're denying the scientific relevance of zero, but it looks to me as though you're doing it because you're all riled up and aren't thinking clearly. For example...


All of your arguments against 0 apply equally to negative numbers or to 17 or to 5/8 or to pi. To put it differently, your arguments against the scientific relevance of 0 are no more valid than they would be against the scientific relevance of 17, 5/8, pi, or negative numbers.

Yes, numbers are just concepts, but the concept of numbers is a foundation of modern science. You can be a good scientist without believing that the number 17 exists in the real world, but you can't be a good scientist without understanding the role that numbers such as 17 and 0 play in scientific theories.


Then take a deep breath, and drop your semantic arguments.

Physics is hard enough without trying to understand it sans zero.

Removed breaches. Please read the Membership Agreement and abide by it.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
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Only read the first page so far but I see the difference between engineers and physicists already.


ETA: Actually I'll add I see a difference between people who talk about this stuff in the abstract and those of us who actually have
to build stuff. When you build things there is no negative pressure there is only pressure that could kill you.
 
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ETA: Actually I'll add I see a difference between people who talk about this stuff in the abstract and those of us who actually have
to build stuff. When you build things there is no negative pressure there is only pressure that could kill you.

Uh... no. Any engineer worth his salt that works with fluid dynamics can tell you that negative pressures can matter quite a bit when you build stuff. For example, if you run a propeller in water very fast, you're create negative pressure in parts of the blade's wake. If that negative pressure is large enough, you'll produce cavitation, which can then erode the structural integrity of the propeller.
 
No it simply is you show me an experiment that shows a real infinity or a real 0 point and I'll call you et al a liar.

Stop making mathematical axioms reality, you'll understand science better.

Look, I've tried to be polite, to educate you about something essoteric that you didn't know about. But rather than choose to learn, you have chosen to remain ignorant. And insult me while I'm at it. So I'm done being polite.

You are deeply ignorant about both math and science. Starting with the fact that you clearly have no idea what "axiom" even means, since it's simply not applicable to anything I've said. Second, you're following dogma yourself. You learned your little mantra that zeros and infinities are impossible, and you'll hold onto that despite every available evidence to the contrary. And for what? Because you can't distinguish between quantities which cannot reach these limiting values and quantities which can? That's pathetic. You call me (and the field of physics in general) a liar, yet you cannot even explain why an infinite temperature or zero pressure are impossible to achieve.

I never at any point claimed negatives didn't exist hell quantum mechanics is based on them or at least the squaring of imaginary or real numbers is in a wave function equation. What are you arguing about. I just said 0 and infinity are concepts, they cannot and will never exist in a physical universe.

This claim is either completely wrong or completely meaningless. The only way it isn't completely wrong is if numbers are themselves only "concepts", but if you really want to take such a solipsistic approach, well, nobody else has any reason to play along, and what the hell are you doing here anyways?

What are you trying to make me believe that if you say enough maths nothing exists and more than everything does.

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I told you how to achieve zero absolute pressure. The easiest way to do it is VERY MUCH in the presence of something. You do it in a container FULL of something.

And infinite temperature is not "more than everything". I've explained what it is. The fact that it makes you uncomfortable (which, really, is the ONLY actual objection you have) is quite irrelevant.

You really picked on the wrong person here.

So that's your new tactic, is it? Sticking out your chest to try to make yourself seem intimidating?

There are practicing professional physicists on this board. They don't brag about their credentials. They don't have to. Their arguments stand on their own. Your puffery will impress no one.

I'm studying physics now and maths

Come back when you're done, because you obviously haven't learned enough yet.
 
Stop making mathematical axioms reality, you'll understand science better. If you want to make maths real just be a pure mathematician and forgo science. Don't burden me with your semantic waffle it's worthless. I don't care if you think you have defined nothing as something that exists or infinity as something that makes sense in science as anything but a limit, you are still full of **** until you can show me how it applies to a real quantity.

Woe calrid, this sure makes you look like a crank, maybe you should reconsider your oppion.

I don't suppose you would care to tell me why we can not acceleate ectrons or proton to the speed of light in an accelerator?

This is a relevant question and it brings up the idea of infinity in an experiment.

But just WOW! You sure made some big bold silly statements there.

So why can't we accelearate a proton to the speed of light, why do accelerators use so much energy to go from .990 the speed of light to .9990?
 
It's logical that 0 can exist in the universe (the example of canceling gravitational forces mentioned above) but it seems it would be fleeting and impossible to sustain and improbable -- if not impossible -- to experience or accurately measure. On the other hand, truly infinite quantities of anything (e.g.: energy), however, seem impossible to achieve, unless we are taking about some infinite quantity of the whole (infinite) universe. However, we know that even the infinity of the universe is a debated subject.
 
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It's logical that 0 can exist in the universe (the example of canceling gravitational forces mentioned above) but it seems it would be fleeting and impossible to sustain and improbable -- if not impossible -- to experience or accurately measure.

That's basically true of any exact value for a continuous variable. Nothing about 0 is in any way unique in that regard.

On the other hand, truly infinite quantities of anything (e.g.: energy), however, seem impossible to achieve

Infinite temperature is fairly easy to achieve, given the right system. It's not a stable configuration so it won't last, but can and does exist. And there is nothing - no law, no theorem, no experimental constraint - that prevents infinite temperature. It also doesn't require infinite energy (again, given the right system), which is genuinely forbidden in any finite region.
 
That's basically true of any exact value for a continuous variable. Nothing about 0 is in any way unique in that regard.
Exactly!


Infinite temperature is fairly easy to achieve, given the right system. It's not a stable configuration so it won't last, but can and does exist. And there is nothing - no law, no theorem, no experimental constraint - that prevents infinite temperature. It also doesn't require infinite energy (again, given the right system), which is genuinely forbidden in any finite region.

Here, I'm less persuaded by your arguments. This "inverse temperature" you cite as evidence for your claim is not convincing. I can take any physical quantity (let's say, momentum) and use it's reciprocal (call it inverse momentum -- 1/mv) and show that it becomes infinite as we move from positive (through zero) to negative momentum. We now have the inescapable conclusion that infinite inverse momentum exists. Is that really meaningful -- any less so than inverse temperature?
 
I suggest you measure the acceleration of a stationary object.
Relative to what reference, he queried.
Zero is as real a number as 3.14159. I'm not sure why you're denying the scientific relevance of zero, but it looks to me as though you're doing it because you're all riled up and aren't thinking clearly. For example...
relative to some reference frame
All of your arguments against 0 apply equally to negative numbers or to 17 or to 5/8 or to pi. To put it differently, your arguments against the scientific relevance of 0 are no more valid than they would be against the scientific relevance of 17, 5/8, pi, or negative numbers.

Yes, numbers are just concepts, but the concept of numbers is a foundation of modern science. You can be a good scientist without believing that the number 17 exists in the real world, but you can't be a good scientist without understanding the role that numbers such as 17 and 0 play in scientific theories.


Then take a deep breath, and drop your semantic arguments.

Physics is hard enough without trying to understand it sans zero.
Your arguments are, to an engineer, all semantics. So we're even.

Uh... no. Any engineer worth his salt that works with fluid dynamics can tell you that negative pressures can matter quite a bit when you build stuff. For example, if you run a propeller in water very fast, you're create negative pressure in parts of the blade's wake. If that negative pressure is large enough, you'll produce cavitation, which can then erode the structural integrity of the propeller.
And that "negative pressure' is relative to a REFERENCE pressure.We all know that if you suck hard enough on a container of water, you can make it boil and freeze, at room temperature.
All of this supports the fact that while "Negative pressure" may exist in a mathematical sense, at the quantum level, and that "infinite temperature" might exist in a sense by playing with the spin of electrons, from a practical standpoint, they are simply non-existent.
 
And that "negative pressure' is relative to a REFERENCE pressure.

And that reference pressure can be an absolute reference. This isn't relativity. There really is an absolute reference, and pressures in a fluid really can and do become negative relative to this absolute reference.

All of this supports the fact that while "Negative pressure" may exist in a mathematical sense, at the quantum level, and that "infinite temperature" might exist in a sense by playing with the spin of electrons, from a practical standpoint, they are simply non-existent.

Again, that's simply not true. For example, the following page discusses negative pressures in regards to avoiding cavitation with a propeller:
http://books.google.com/books?id=8w...avitation negative pressure propeller&f=false
In their terminology, negative pressure is indeed in reference to a non-absolute pressure. But note carefully the magnitudes they discuss: if the negative pressure (with regards to a non-absolute reference frame) becomes larger than the ambient pressure, then cavitation can occur. That corresponds to negative absolute pressures. So they absolutely can occur, and they absolutely do matter, in real life, for engineers.
 
Here, I'm less persuaded by your arguments. This "inverse temperature" you cite as evidence for your claim is not convincing. I can take any physical quantity (let's say, momentum) and use it's reciprocal (call it inverse momentum -- 1/mv) and show that it becomes infinite as we move from positive (through zero) to negative momentum. We now have the inescapable conclusion that infinite inverse momentum exists. Is that really meaningful -- any less so than inverse temperature?

Temperature is what diverges, NOT inverse temperature. Inverse temperature remains finite. So you're basically arguing that temperature is not really meaningful, since that's the quantity which diverges. If you want to take such an approach, then you're stuck dealing with inverse temperature, NOT temperature. If you insist upon discarding temperature in favor of inverse temperature, you are free to do so. But it seems a little silly to avoid using temperature just because it can diverge under some conditions.

As to why inverse temperature is fundamental, that comes from the simple condition for thermal equilibrium between two systems. In order to maximize total entropy (the equilibrium condition), we find the maximum of the function S=S1+S2 with respect to energy flow between the two systems. That maximum is achieved when dS1/dE1 = dS2/dE2. These quantities are your inverse temperatures, and this is how you prove that inverse temperatures (and thus temperatures) of systems in thermal contact are equal at equilibrium.
 
And that reference pressure can be an absolute reference. This isn't relativity. There really is an absolute reference, and pressures in a fluid really can and do become negative relative to this absolute reference.



Again, that's simply not true. For example, the following page discusses negative pressures in regards to avoiding cavitation with a propeller:
http://books.google.com/books?id=8w...avitation negative pressure propeller&f=false
In their terminology, negative pressure is indeed in reference to a non-absolute pressure. But note carefully the magnitudes they discuss: if the negative pressure (with regards to a non-absolute reference frame) becomes larger than the ambient pressure, then cavitation can occur. That corresponds to negative absolute pressures. So they absolutely can occur, and they absolutely do matter, in real life, for engineers.
Hate to tell you this, but they also add head, or hydrostatic pressure, as well as dynamic (stagnation pressure) to the ambient atmospheric. The blade will stall, long before it even hits vacuum, or 0 psia
And a hint:
a 4 psi pressure is, indeed NEGATIVE PRESSURE when compared to 14.7 psi+head. As a matter of fact, it is -10.7 psig...
 
Temperature is what diverges, NOT inverse temperature. Inverse temperature remains finite. So you're basically arguing that temperature is not really meaningful, since that's the quantity which diverges. If you want to take such an approach, then you're stuck dealing with inverse temperature, NOT temperature. If you insist upon discarding temperature in favor of inverse temperature, you are free to do so. But it seems a little silly to avoid using temperature just because it can diverge under some conditions.

As to why inverse temperature is fundamental, that comes from the simple condition for thermal equilibrium between two systems. In order to maximize total entropy (the equilibrium condition), we find the maximum of the function S=S1+S2 with respect to energy flow between the two systems. That maximum is achieved when dS1/dE1 = dS2/dE2. These quantities are your inverse temperatures, and this is how you prove that inverse temperatures (and thus temperatures) of systems in thermal contact are equal at equilibrium.

I'm not getting this. From the wikipedia articel on "Negative Temperature" we have the following:

"Generally, temperature as it is felt is defined by the kinetic energy of atoms (heat). Since there is no upper bound on momentum of an atom there is no upper bound to the number of energy states available if enough energy is added, and no way to get to a negative temperature. However, temperature is more generally defined by statistical mechanics than just kinetic energy (see below). The inverse temperature β = 1/kT (where k is Boltzmann's constant) scale runs continuously from low energy to high as +∞, . . . , −∞."

Certainly, the kinetic energy of any object (system) cannot become infinite, so the former "general" definition of temperature will not permit an infinite quantity for T.
However, the temperature defined in the latter "more general" definition from statistical mechanics seems to allow an infinite T because β is allowed to go through 0, which is exactly analogous to my example with inverse momentum. I am not arguing here as much as I am trying to understand.
 
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Again, that's simply not true. For example, the following page discusses negative pressures in regards to avoiding cavitation with a propeller:
http://books.google.com/books?id=8w...avitation negative pressure propeller&f=false
In their terminology, negative pressure is indeed in reference to a non-absolute pressure. But note carefully the magnitudes they discuss: if the negative pressure (with regards to a non-absolute reference frame) becomes larger than the ambient pressure, then cavitation can occur. That corresponds to negative absolute pressures. So they absolutely can occur, and they absolutely do matter, in real life, for engineers.

I'm curious. How does this jive with this that you said in an earlier post here?:

That's simply not true. Water, for example, can support negative pressures of magnitudes significantly larger than 1 atmosphere. And that is absolute negative pressures, not negative relative to atmosphere. This is possible because water molecules attract each other, so they can pull on each other, not just push. It's basically the bulk equivalent of surface tension. There's a limit to this negative pressure, because beyond a certain tension the water will simply pull apart, but water definitely can go to significant negative absolute pressure.

If it starts cavitating once the absolute pressure becomes just zero, much less negative, how can it "go" to "significant negative absolute pressure"?
 
If you insist upon discarding temperature in favor of inverse temperature, you are free to do so. But it seems a little silly to avoid using temperature just because it can diverge under some conditions .
Actually I would think that if T can diverge under some real conditions in our model but not in reality, I would reconsider my model and my definition of T. Perhaps this β is a very useful concept but not fundamental if it allows for an infinite T, which is supposed to represent the kinetic energy of an object.
 
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