"But Global Warming is a HOAX!!!"

[Olmstead]

I've always said eco-terrorism is the only actual way out of this mess. I'm so not joking. The tree spikers and monkeywrenchers were right all along, and history will vindicate them when the Greenland bigots are whining about all those melting refuges trying to get into the country.

 

[gnome]

No, it's not confounding at all.

The answer is obviously A. It's very obvious. Pretending that it's up to individuals to 'reduce their carbon footprint' taking cold showers and biking is counter-productive because it's a bloody lie. Some people have attempted to 'live sustainably' for decades because they believe that it somehow contributes to pouring less CO₂ into the atmosphere while ignoring the industry and politicians responsible for the damage.

Whereas B is a strawman.

I hope that made it less confounding for you.

Exactly. It isn't hypocritical to say, "Let's avoid being pennywise and poundfoolish" and more specifically, "Let's not take the political momentum demanding significant industrial changes and exhaust it on far less effective individual consumer behavior."

 

[varwoche]

Exactly. It isn't hypocritical to say, "Let's avoid being pennywise and poundfoolish" and more specifically, "Let's not take the political momentum demanding significant industrial changes and exhaust it on far less effective individual consumer behavior."

As if mundane personal choices are exhausting, or somehow subtract from the grand scheme. That’s flat out absurd.

 

[novaphile]

Actually, power windows and advanced electronics (except AC) are of little impact, climate-wise and could well be the frostting that might make an otherwise dull cake go down. In fact, something like a good navigation system will likely save some energy. .. but otherwise, agreed.

Hans

Air conditioning in cars is counter intuitive.

i.e. you lose more range (petrol or electric) with the windows open, (because of the increased wind resistance of the car) than you lose by running air conditioning.

The current crop of Teslas have inverter air conditioners that are even more efficient.

 

[novaphile]

I notice that you're continuing with the cold showers lie.

It makes it pretty obvious that we can write you off as a shill for fossil fuels.

There must be some reason why you're repeating lies and trying to belittle people that have reduced their personal carbon footprint.

 

[gnome]

As if mundane personal choices are exhausting, or somehow subtract from the grand scheme. That’s flat out absurd.

The choices themselves, no. The promotional effort, yes.

 

[dann]

I've always said eco-terrorism is the only actual way out of this mess. I'm so not joking. The tree spikers and monkeywrenchers were right all along, and history will vindicate them when the Greenland bigots are whining about all those melting refuges trying to get into the country.

More security apparatus would soon put an end to eco-terrorism, and it would make the fossil-fuel industry even more popular when it was made to look like saviors of average Joe's electricity. Ordinary consumers would get even more upset by the 'tree huggers' than they already are when their fridges (and nowadays even allegedly eco friendly cars) were put out of business because there's too little renewable energy available in most countries to make up for the decommissioned fossil-fuel power plants.

As for tree-spiking in this context: At least, trees are renewable. If new forest is planted to replace them, it's not the major issue. The burning of fossil fuel is.

If eco-terrorism stood a chance, I'd be all for it, but I don't think it does.

 

[dann]

I notice that you're continuing with the cold showers lie.

It makes it pretty obvious that we can write you off as a shill for fossil fuels.

There must be some reason why you're repeating lies and trying to belittle people that have reduced their personal carbon footprint.

Did you ever wonder why the fossil-fuel industry itself embraces the idea of people 'reducing their personal carbon footprint'? As long as it doesn't put a dent it their continued sale of fossil fuels.
Apparently not. I don't know if it's because you're "a shill for fossil fuel," but I don't think it is. I think you actually believe that it makes a difference, and that you are proud of the difference you think it makes that you 'have reduced your personal carbon footprint'.
Plenty of examples of the ideologies spread by the fossil-fuel industry and its politicians are mentioned in The Parrot and the Igloo. Read it.

I don't 'belittle' people that fall for the delusion that it is all up to us even though it obviously isn't. I tell them why they are wrong. Get used to it.

Maybe you can tell the rest of us how your biking and solar panels on the roof have helped make it a better world and reduce the greenhouse effect - while nothing is being done to put a stop to the real polluters (I guess we can call CO₂ emission pollution at this point).

Did it help that we now all have LED lamps? How many months did it buy us? (And did you notice that the fossil-fuel industry had nothing against and even recommended the change when everybody individually bought LED lamps and got rid of their old incandescent light bulbs to save energy?)

Why do you think Ted Cruz and guys like him blame any breakdown of the gridl on wind and solar even though they obviously aren't to blame?
Why do you find a post like this one belittling?

 

[dann]

Yeah I have a sneaking suspicion he's a YEC.

Maybe. But I don't think that it was a coincidence that the outbreak of frenetic activity happened on July 27, i.e. when fossil fuel feared what Biden was going to say in his heatwave speech.
I bet they popped the champagne after the speech. Or during ...

 

[MRC_Hans]

Air conditioning in cars is counter intuitive.

i.e. you lose more range (petrol or electric) with the windows open, (because of the increased wind resistance of the car) than you lose by running air conditioning.

The current crop of Teslas have inverter air conditioners that are even more efficient.

The thing about open windows is a myth. Mythbusters tried it out. It was a very poorly designed experiment, even for them, but it should still have showed something.

There may exist some very streamlined models, but the average family car does not have a laminar airflow along the sides at any speed that matters.

Hans

 

[varwoche]

The choices themselves, no. The promotional effort, yes.

Fine. But now put it in context. Review the thread and explain why Myriad's posts merit derision.

 

[Myriad]

The thing about open windows is a myth. Mythbusters tried it out. It was a very poorly designed experiment, even for them, but it should still have showed something.

There may exist some very streamlined models, but the average family car does not have a laminar airflow along the sides at any speed that matters.

Hans

My experience in average family cars is that having windows open at highway speed doesn't result in a pleasant breeze blowing through the cabin. Nor even a violent too-fast wind. Instead, it causes very uncomfortable buffeting or subsonic vibrations in the interior air. Sometimes this can be mitigated by very carefully balancing the window openings between left and right. Sometimes not.

Anyhow, my point about AC in cars wasn't that it's good or bad, fuel-saving or wasteful. Just that AC and heating are features I can do without in a hypothetical minimal car for local travel, where the alternative is walking, bicycling, buses, or trains. There's no AC or heating when walking. There's no AC or heating when bicycling. There's no AC or heating at bus stops or train platforms. There's supposed to be AC or heating in the trains and buses themselves, but whichever one is needed for the current weather conditions is usually out of order.

 

[newyorkguy]

As they (used) to say on Top 100 radio stations, The hits keep on coming! BBC recently reported:

Flight turbulence has increased as climate change has warmed the planet, researchers say. Scientists at Reading University in the UK studied clear-air turbulence, which is harder for pilots to avoid. They found that severe turbulence had increased 55% between 1979 and 2020 on a typically busy North Atlantic route. They put the increase down to changes in wind speed at high altitudes due to warmer air from carbon emissions. BBC news link

Three weeks ago on a US domestic air flight, Fox News reported:

Multiple passengers were injured on Wednesday afternoon [July 12] when an Allegiant Air flight encountered severe turbulence. The flight, which took off from Asheville, North Carolina, landed at St. Pete-Clearwater International Airport in Florida around 3:45 p.m., according to FOX 13. One of the passengers said "it looked like ‘The Matrix.’ The flight attendant floated up to the ceiling then slammed to the ground." Fox News link

As football's John Madden used to say:

The wheels are coming off the wagon!

 

[lobosrul5]

My experience in average family cars is that having windows open at highway speed doesn't result in a pleasant breeze blowing through the cabin. Nor even a violent too-fast wind. Instead, it causes very uncomfortable buffeting or subsonic vibrations in the interior air. Sometimes this can be mitigated by very carefully balancing the window openings between left and right. Sometimes not.

Anyhow, my point about AC in cars wasn't that it's good or bad, fuel-saving or wasteful. Just that AC and heating are features I can do without in a hypothetical minimal car for local travel, where the alternative is walking, bicycling, buses, or trains. There's no AC or heating when walking. There's no AC or heating when bicycling. There's no AC or heating at bus stops or train platforms. There's supposed to be AC or heating in the trains and buses themselves, but whichever one is needed for the current weather conditions is usually out of order.

Thats what these thingies used to be for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_glass

This window may be set on hinges and is then also known as a vent window, wing window, wing vent window, or a fly window. Most often found on older vehicles on the front doors, it is a small roughly triangular glass in front of and separate from the main window that rotates inward (see top right image) for ventilation.

I can remember them still being a thing when I was just a kiddo. Even though cars also had AC for the most part. You could open them when you were at speed and not get that insanely loud noise.

 

[The Don]

Thats what these thingies used to be for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_glass

This window may be set on hinges and is then also known as a vent window, wing window, wing vent window, or a fly window. Most often found on older vehicles on the front doors, it is a small roughly triangular glass in front of and separate from the main window that rotates inward (see top right image) for ventilation.

I can remember them still being a thing when I was just a kiddo. Even though cars also had AC for the most part. You could open them when you were at speed and not get that insanely loud noise.

My Alfa 75 had plastic deflectors over the top of the front windows which allowed the windows to be opened without the unpleasant buffeting.

It's also the only use I've found for a sunroof. Opening it a little prevents uncomfortable vibrations.

That said, I have my car AC on every time I drive because it's always wet here in Wales.

 

[newyorkguy]

...There's supposed to be AC or heating in the trains and buses themselves, but whichever one is needed for the current weather conditions is usually out of order.

What's the reference for this? As someone who has been commuting for decades on New York MTA (NY City Transit, Metro-North) my experience is, the AC and heating almost always works. In fact, especially on the buses, if the AC fails the bus is usually taken out-of-service. Trains too, though they usually complete the trip first. No heat? Even in the bad old 1980s, I have very very rarely ever encountered a transit bus, subway or commuter train without heat. By the way, nowadays many train platforms have outdoor heating units and they work pretty well.

Seeing is believing. In Chicago-

[IMGW=400]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1474&pictureid=13652[/IMGW]

Myriad, where do you commute? What system?

 

[bruto]

My experience in average family cars is that having windows open at highway speed doesn't result in a pleasant breeze blowing through the cabin. Nor even a violent too-fast wind. Instead, it causes very uncomfortable buffeting or subsonic vibrations in the interior air. Sometimes this can be mitigated by very carefully balancing the window openings between left and right. Sometimes not.

Anyhow, my point about AC in cars wasn't that it's good or bad, fuel-saving or wasteful. Just that AC and heating are features I can do without in a hypothetical minimal car for local travel, where the alternative is walking, bicycling, buses, or trains. There's no AC or heating when walking. There's no AC or heating when bicycling. There's no AC or heating at bus stops or train platforms. There's supposed to be AC or heating in the trains and buses themselves, but whichever one is needed for the current weather conditions is usually out of order.

Agreed. Especially here in New England, at least until global warming gets even worse. One of the reasons open windows don't work so well now is that the cars are designed not to need it. Back in the day, cars with proper fresh air intakes in the ventilation system, and with wing windows and less radical tumblehome on the sides got more air. They defrosted without AC too, and without the outside of the window having to be wiped from the condensation.

 

[dann]

Bill Nye, the Science Guy

A YouTube short: #BillNye on #climagechange advice

The latest computer models indicate there will not be this catastrophic moment where the Gulf Stream stops or runs backwards or the North Atlantic freezes over. It's just going to get worse and worse for everybody.
You can only perspire so much. You can only let so much sweat evaporate off you, and then if it gets too hot, you'll die. This is a heat stroke and so on. So we are headed toward that for more and more people on Earth.
And people say to me, 'Bill Nye, Science Guy, what can I do about climate change?'
And people generally want to hear something akin to, "Recycle your water bottles," or something like that. And that's not irrelevant. But that's not gonna do it, people. We need big, big ideas.
So everybody, what you can do about it is vote. Vote for people who are going to do something about it.

The problem with this particular 'big, big idea' of his is that you can't ******* rely on politicians and their campaign promises! Even though it's not a science issue, Bill Nye and everybody else know that. For several decades, candidates for political posts have been lying about this and made promises about this to the people who elect them. However, the people who elect them are not the people who pay them.
Bill Nye is old enough to have seen several examples of this. He knows this. So should the rest of you, but everybody is in denial about this:

The problem was the fossil fuel industry and the politicians they bribed[/hilitie] - and you shouldn't try to convince those ******** of anything. It can't be done. They'll take your appeal to making it easy "for people to stomach" for what it is: An opportunity for them to continue what they've been doing the whole time: business as usual.

Sure they do, but only because we want them to. If we didn't we would vote out the corrupt politicians.

'We' have very little understanding of what needs to be done. 'We' have been listening to the propaganda from the fossil-fuel industry and their politicians, which constitutes what 'we' know and 'want'. And you may not have noticed, that even when 'we' want something sensible like a minimum wage that can pay for our expenses, universal health care and education, and something to be done about global warming, it doesn't happen because politicians don't do what they promised to do. Have you ever actually met representative democracy?! Obama promised to do something about it, as did Biden. I think even the two Bushes did. I know that you were brought up with the idea that elected politicians do what "we want them to," but they obviously don't. You may be the guy who elected them, but you are not the guy who pays them. But again: This is Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology and not Social Issues & Current Events. (...) Two steps forward, two steps back. The Biden admin is sending mixed messages on climate (MSNBC, July 31, 2023)

So let me give you a big, big idea: In spite of all evidence to the contrary, most of you guys still prefer to live in your comforting delusion that you are somehow the masters of your masters, of the ones who persuade you to elect them. But you aren't, which is the whole point of elections. And the next time around, those of you who are Americans, will elect the ******* who did absolutely nothing about global warming this time and didn't even dare to properly mention it in his most recent speech about the heatwave because he is afraid of the guys who pay for his and everybody else's political campaigns. You know this, you have seen it happen again and again, and yet you convince yourselves that it is the thing to do, in addition to recycling water bottles, because ... 'But look at the alternative!' However, the alternative to the alternative isn't really any alternative, is it?!

 

[gnome]

Fine. But now put it in context. Review the thread and explain why Myriad's posts merit derision.

I'm not aware I'd been deriding Myriad's posts.

 

[gnome]

So let me give you a big, big idea: In spite of all evidence to the contrary, most of you guys still prefer to live in your comforting delusion that you are somehow the masters of your masters, of the ones who persuade you to elect them. But you aren't, which is the whole point of elections. And the next time around, those of you who are Americans, will elect the ******* who did absolutely nothing about global warming this time and didn't even dare to properly mention it in his most recent speech about the heatwave because he is afraid of the guys who pay for his and everybody else's political campaigns. You know this, you have seen it happen again and again, and yet you convince yourselves that it is the thing to do, in addition to recycling water bottles, because ... 'But look at the alternative!'
However, the alternative to the alternative isn't really any alternative, is it?!

Do you think international agreements like the Paris accords help move the world in the right direction? Certainly who we voted for had an impact on whether we participated.