Bush warns against Armenia bill

[Gurdur]

I am skeptical of your ability to have a quiet opinion...

That was unfair. I DO have quite a few opinions I keep strictly to myself normally.

If Bush has any political capital left, I sincerely hope he spends it in quashing this.

Oh dear. Troubles there, centering around the "if".

I submit that the world has moved on. At risk of sounding cruel and uncaring, it is apparently the Armenians who have not.

Not necessarily. Armenia, now an independent nation once again, borders on Turkey; and Armenia rules two Turkomenic enclaves whose fate Turkey takes a great deal of interest in. This all isn't just academic.

History weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living.
--- Karl Marx (IIRC)

 

[Garrette]

I don't know, you tell me.

Close to zero.

Just another country to put pressure on. That's all.

Okay. Then the absence of this resolution is just the absence of another country putting pressure on and makes no real difference toward the issue?

No, just makes it official.

There are times for that, I agree. I do not agree that this is the time for this one.

And, the Turkish government.

Okay.

Admitting the genocide would be the first step in the Turkish government moving on.

If they admit it today, officially, what will be the difference tomorrow?

Maybe you should tell all the peoples of the world that have been wronged that it's time to move on.

For some it is. I am not the arbiter of which groups have reached that time. I merely said that the world has moved on, regardless if the Armenians themselves have not.

Many wars and conflicts would end.

That's an argument in my favor then.

 

[Gurdur]

It refutes it.

You're kidding me. If you want to claim it "refutes" it, you're going to have to show just how.

There is a difference between Germany choosing to pay reparations in exchange for the restoration of its government and (I suspect) out of an acceptance of guilt and the German government being legally obliged to pay such reparations.

Since German courts recognise actual legal obligation in the payment of such compensation and in the return of associated assets, then your suspicion is bloody dead wrong.

 

[Garrette]

That was unfair. I DO have quite a few opinions I keep strictly to myself normally.

Ah. Those must be the correct opinions then? {Don't shoot! I'm funnin'}

Oh dear. Troubles there, centering around the "if".

Being the build-up to Halloween, it is the appropriate time for zombies, even political zombies.

Not necessarily. Armenia, now an independent nation once again, borders on Turkey; and Armenia rules two Turkomenic enclaves whose fate Turkey takes a great deal of interest in. This all isn't just academic.

I was really only taking issue with Starthinker's implication that "the world" hasn't moved on. I don't think that point is weakened if I add Turkey to the set that includes countries that have not moved on past this.

I knew going down this path risked making me seem callous. I am not insensitive to what happened to the Armenians nor to Turkey's inability to officially admit it. I am simply saying that it is not a world-consuming issue, we must pick our battles based on decisions made in the world of real political consequences, and even if this is a battle to be fought the method chosen is the wrong tactic.

History weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living.

--- Karl Marx (IIRC)

Quote Marx one more time and I will be prohibited from even acknowledging your existence except to disparage it.

-----Section 805 of the Patriot Act

 

[Gurdur]

Ah. Those must be the correct opinions then? {Don't shoot! I'm funnin'}

No worries at all. You know me, and I do have a sense of humour, so no worries at all. And since I know you and trust your general opinions, its bloody unlikely I'm going to badly misunderstand anything.

I was really only taking issue with Starthinker's implication that "the world" hasn't moved on. I don't think that point is weakened if I add Turkey to the set that includes countries that have not moved on past this.

Oh, I know. I was just quibbling. Pardon me.

I knew going down this path risked making me seem callous.

Not to me. I am a bit more intelligent than that, and I prefer honesty to false sentimentality. Really, we're both grown men and we can bloody talk like it, even if everyone else is screaming and flapping their arms around.

Quote Marx one more time and I will be prohibited from even acknowledging your existence except to disparage it.

-----Section 805 of the Patriot Act

Ah, the disparagement, the disparagement. Cruel, but not unusual.

 

[Starthinker]

Close to zero.


Okay. Then the absence of this resolution is just the absence of another country putting pressure on and makes no real difference toward the issue?


There are times for that, I agree. I do not agree that this is the time for this one.


Okay.


If they admit it today, officially, what will be the difference tomorrow?

Turkey would be pissed and all kinds of things will happen. For the Armenians it's mainly an emotional issue, so they would just breath a sigh of relief as they've been trying to get this to pass for decades. I'm not qualified to speak on the legal issues brought up.

For some it is. I am not the arbiter of which groups have reached that time. I merely said that the world has moved on, regardless if the Armenians themselves have not.

Your opinion, which I won't argue because we are all entitled to our opinions. But I do know Armenians who are only second generation from this who have heard the horror stories from their parents, so it's still very much alive to them. At what point do you tell someone to move on? 50 years? 100 years? 200 years?

That's an argument in my favor then.

I think you need to go back and read my posts. I'm not arguing in one way or the other, just asking if how the Armenians close to me feel is typical. This is why I usually avoid the political forum.

And yes, we all agree that ending wars and conflicts is a good thing, that is in everyone's favor, not just yours.

 

[Starthinker]

I was really only taking issue with Starthinker's implication that "the world" hasn't moved on. I don't think that point is weakened if I add Turkey to the set that includes countries that have not moved on past this.

I'm sorry, where did I bring the world into this? If I did, I didn't mean to. The Armenians who are pushing for this resolution just want the US government to acknowledge the genocide happened. Again, not sure where I brought the world into this, and again, I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just wondered if other Armenians feel the same way as the ones I know and love. Only in a political forum can I ask a question and get accused of saying "the world" hasn't moved on.

Edited to add a little clarity: If the US passes this resolution, Turkey has said they would break all ties with the US. They have already broken ties with France for the same thing. Then the Armenians will push Russia, or the UK, or any other countries to pass similar resolutions. I'm sure Turkey will break ties with them as well. Pretty soon, Turkey will look around and realize they shot themselves in the foot because they can't get supplies and such from all the countries they shut out. (By the way, last I read the EU wouldn't let Turkey in until they admitted the genocide happened, it's the only thing stopping them from entering.) So, finally, they admit it happened and open trade and whatever with all the countries they shut out. Armenians everywhere will breath a sigh of relief that they finally admitted it and move on.

Again, this is how it was explained to me. No, it probably doesn't make much of a difference to the rest of the world, but the Armenians sure will love it. And the typical American probably won't know the difference one way or the other.

 

[Garrette]

I'm sorry, where did I bring the world into this?

From Post #26:

so that the world can move on.

It's the comment I've been responding to in regard to all the "moved on" stuff.

If I did, I didn't mean to.

Okay.

The Armenians who are pushing for this resolution just want the US government to acknowledge the genocide happened.

I understand that, and I don't think they are horribly wrong to want that. Were I in their shoes I would likely want the same thing. But if I were in their shoes I would likely not be the best judge of when and how is the best time and method to do it.

and again, I'm not arguing one way or the other.

Okay.

I just wondered if other Armenians feel the same way as the ones I know and love.

I wouldn't be surprised, but I have no direct experience of it.

Only in a political forum can I ask a question and get accused of saying "the world" hasn't moved on.

Post #26.

But I wasn't really "accusing." It may be a bit of bragging, but I think it fair to say that I'm one of the less vitriolic posters in Politics. Maybe that's because I'm often one of the less well informed; regardless, I'm not attacking you. Even if you were actively arguing for passage of the resolution, I wouldn't attack you. Reasonable people can (and do) hold that position. I simply think that the position has more drawbacks than positives. A casual risk/benefit analysis indicates to me that it is an action devoutly to be avoided.

Edited to add a little clarity: If the US passes this resolution, Turkey has said they would break all ties with the US. They have already broken ties with France for the same thing. Then the Armenians will push Russia, or the UK, or any other countries to pass similar resolutions. I'm sure Turkey will break ties with them as well. Pretty soon, Turkey will look around and realize they shot themselves in the foot because they can't get supplies and such from all the countries they shut out. (By the way, last I read the EU wouldn't let Turkey in until they admitted the genocide happened, it's the only thing stopping them from entering.) So, finally, they admit it happened and open trade and whatever with all the countries they shut out. Armenians everywhere will breath a sigh of relief that they finally admitted it and move on.

That is one possible outcome, yes.

Again, this is how it was explained to me. No, it probably doesn't make much of a difference to the rest of the world, but the Armenians sure will love it. And the typical American probably won't know the difference one way or the other.

The typical American will suddenly realize the impact if your hypothetical outcome fails to materialize and one of the other strategically damaging outcomes does. Then we'll act all typically American and blame President Clinton (that's Madame President) for allowing it to happen.


ETA: Gurdur. I know that about you. I just run into it with so many others that I tend up erring on the safe side even when I think it isn't necessary. I promise in future to be forthrightly rude and insulting.

 

[Starthinker]

In any case, this is an interesting predicament for our government. I'll be watching this one because I can't wait to see how it plays out.


Edited to add (again): From post #26 I was paraphrasing an article, not stating my opinion, I can see where that was misinterpreted.

 

[Gurdur]

ETA: Gurdur. I know that about you. I just run into it with so many others that I tend up erring on the safe side even when I think it isn't necessary. I promise in future to be forthrightly rude and insulting.

You can call me anything you like, as long as you don't call me late for dinner.

 

[dudalb]

Frankly,If Kerry was president he would try to keep this bill from passing also. Turkey is too valuable a ally in the MidEast to avoid offending. Kerry might work more behind the scenes,but he would be trying to kill it also.

 

[Gurdur]

To be fair, I think that if Kerry was President he would do the same damn thing. Fact is the US considers Turkey too valuable an ally to risk offending.

Well, yes. Quite true. The situation is too unstable to risk not only upsetting the applecart, but also massively nuking the apples. Your point is very valid; any POTUS at all, Rep or Dem, would try blocking anything like this.

ANd I have not noted many European leaders being any better on the issue of the Armenian Holocaust.

Well, the French parliament did in fact pass such a resolution. Nevertheless, you do have a point there.

 

[Kerberos]

(By the way, last I read the EU wouldn't let Turkey in until they admitted the genocide happened, it's the only thing stopping them from entering.)

you read incorrectly. I'm fairly sure it's not an actual demand, and it's certainly not the only issue. For exampel the fact that Turkey doesn't recognize one of the current EU members (greek Cybrus) might also be considered a minor obstacle.

 

[Starthinker]

you read incorrectly. I'm fairly sure it's not an actual demand, and it's certainly not the only issue. For exampel the fact that Turkey doesn't recognize one of the current EU members (greek Cybrus) might also be considered a minor obstacle.

Yes, I stand corrected. If I recall, it was an original issue that was later dropped. The Greek Cyprus issue is indeed a main sticking point now.

 

[Beerina]

This talks about something that happened 90 years ago. It serves no purpose but to make Turks feel bad about themselves and/or make them angry.

That is merely being ignorant. Acknowledging the genocide actually would have legal consequences -- compensation and the like.

How would the US passing a non-binding resolution, that, even if "binding" somehow, would not be binding in Turkey or the EU in any case, cause the US or Turkey to have to pay some compensation?

 

[Beerina]

There's a third important thing pointed out -- Turkey allows overflights of many supply missions to Iraq.

Oops, I guess Turkey considers it a big deal after all.

Its amazing how cavalierly Congresscreeps want to trade laws around amongst themselves for personal gain, when one really hits the fan, it makes you wonder about the poorly thought-out, useless (if we are lucky) crap laws all over the place.

It makes me beleve even more strongly that all laws should expire after 5 years unless explicitely renewed. If Congress doesn't have enough time to re-consider the entire lot every 5 years, they can't possibly expect the population to follow them.

 

[Gurdur]

How would the US passing a non-binding resolution, that, even if "binding" somehow, would not be binding in Turkey or the EU in any case, cause the US or Turkey to have to pay some compensation?

Since this exact question has already been answered in this thread, Beerina, and since there has been a good deal of discussion already on this selfsame topic here, how about you simply read through the thread?

Or does that seem somehow too counter-intuitive for you?

 

[Starthinker]

Keep in mind they are not trying to pass a law. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it's mainly a gesture, just a nod to something that happened long ago.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I only asked because I truly wonder if my experience with Armenians and the stuff I'm told by Armenians are typical. I'm not going to debate what congress is doing, it's a very tricky political position, I just wonder if anyone here was actually Armenian and would like to chime in.

Darth Rotor, you mentioned working with a Turk, is what I'm told about Turkish officials true? I've talked with Armenians from Yerevan who still have contacts in Turkey, which is where I've heard this.

In any case, my children will ask questions about this and I like to be just as informed about this as when they ask me about ghosts and bigfoots and Silvia whats-her-name. We moved out of lower Michigan, so they get as much exposure as I did the first 10 or so years when I married into the family. I haven't run across any Armenian farmers out here in Iowa.

Raising the Armenian issue in our HQ was a very delicate thing, and generally frowned upon by the senior US officer as bad manners when dealing with Turks. As it was, discussing Kurdish policy was ticklish, but my boss was very open about his position on that. Turkey was big enough to be a land that included Kurds as good Turkish, and law abiding citizens, just as America is a country big enough to have any number of people of Mexican descent who were good American, law abiding citizens. Granted, the Kurd Turk thing is not an exact analogue to the American Mexican thing, but it's at least a bit similar.

My colleagues of similar rank, on the Armenian thing, would immediately point to the Greek Turk population transfers (and what they called Turkish Thrace) as also part of the WW I legacy (it seemed to be part of their standard playbook) and ask if I was as interested in how the Greeks treated Turks on Cyprus, etc, ad nauseum.

Put another way, the issue was (this is about ten years ago) a bit loaded, but I think my boss had a decent way of looking at it.

PS: If you wanted to jack up one of the Greek officers, mention Macedonia. Good for a rant, if there had been a few pints tossed down the hatch.

DR

 

[Gurdur]

Raising the Armenian issue in our HQ was a very delicate thing, and generally frowned upon by the senior US officer as bad manners when dealing with Turks.

Makes only good sense and good manners, context considering.

Turkey was big enough to be a land that included Kurds as good Turkish, and law abiding citizens,

Yeeeeeeeeees well, not quite as simple as that. I am not diminishing your previous point in the slightest, I am now only talking about other things. Since it was illegal to talk Kurdish in Turkey, and illegal to mention in public that there are such things as Kurds, and people have gone to jail for precisely that, and quite recently too, then it's all just a tad complex.

My colleagues of similar rank, on the Armenian thing, would immediately point to the Greek Turk population transfers (and what they called Turkish Thrace) as also part of the WW I legacy (it seemed to be part of their standard playbook) and ask if I was as interested in how the Greeks treated Turks on Cyprus, etc, ad nauseum.

They have a point -- as far as it goes for Cyprus, though not as much as they would like it for other things. The whole Cypriot war, leading up to the Turkish invasion, did in fact start with Greek Cypriot terrorist activities against Turk Cypriots, and with related political provocations.

PS: If you wanted to jack up one of the Greek officers, mention Macedonia. Good for a rant, if there had been a few pints tossed down the hatch.

The FYROM issue. Greece. Meh³.

Ritual Disclaimer: Warning: Australian sense of humour ahead. Y'all have been warned.


To put it another way, while the Turks are often just like Americans -- martial and proud, yet deeply worried, insular, convinced everyone is picking on them, and certain that they're all alone in a hostile universe -- yes, while indeed all that can be said, it does have to be admitted that OTOH the Greeks can be full of themselves far too much at times and should simply get the hell over it.