Bush warns against Armenia bill

[Garrette]

So, in about 40 years or so, we should start telling Jewish people to STFU about the Holocaust? Or is there something fundamentally less worthy about the Armenian people that someone can enlighten me about?

Not passing a bill on something is hardly the equivalent of telling people to STFU about it.

If Gurdur hadn't beaten me to it, I would point out that there may conceivably be legal ramifications of this bill, but whatever they are, I think they are outweighed by the political ramifications of it. And I do not know what the legal ramifications would be given that we haven't the authority to order Turkey to pay any type of reparation.

You want a perfect world in which all bad things are officially condemned? Go for it. Push your representatives to officially condemn France for its Southeast Asian colonialism, Spain for it's treatment of the Aztec and Inca, Britain for all its activities in India and Africa, and the United States simply for existing.

Or admit the fact that official labeling of a historical act can only have meaning in a political context and as such will have more political consequences than a fatuous moral self-elevation.

 

[Spindrift]

I for one admit to being ignorant.

How does the US Congress passing a resolution drive legal consequences? Who is going to sue whom in what court and how is that more likely to succeed in light of the resolution?

The article linked in the OP made this suggestion as well and I didn't understand it. Please enlighten me.

The consequences are real because the Turks are very, very sensitive about the subject. They arrested their Nobel Prize winner for just mentioning it. Something about "insulting Turkishness".

The Turks are very likely to close their airspace and use of military bases to Americans. Which would have an effect on the ability to support the troops in Northern Iraq.

I would be willing to go along with Bush on this except for the fact that I heard on NPR this morning, some Turkish official stating it never happened. It's one thing to downplay it, but to outright deny it happened is just too much.

 

[Gurdur]

I for one admit to being ignorant.

How does the US Congress passing a resolution drive legal consequences? Who is going to sue whom in what court and how is that more likely to succeed in light of the resolution?

The article linked in the OP made this suggestion as well and I didn't understand it. Please enlighten me.

At the risk of being flamed by others:

the USA has an interesting legal enviroment. Were the Congress to pass a resolution describing the 1915 Turkish genocide of the Armenians as a genocide, it could very easily encourage further steps of litigation driven by Armenian descendents (living in the USA) of those driven out of Turkey in 1915, with the aim of gaining punitive and other compensation for lost land and for the acts of gross violence. Since there are a great many official Turkish govt assets floating through the USA banking system, such moves would not be without potential effects.

There is also the big potential effect on USA financial, trade and military support of Turkey, also quite possibly affected.

BTW, Turkey literally spends millions in diplomatic efforts to head off just such resolutions; at this time Turkey is in a long diplomatic row with France, owing to the resolution passed through the French parliament, and it affects where Turkey buys its weapons from.

 

[Gurdur]

.....I think they are outweighed by the political ramifications of it. And I do not know what the legal ramifications would be given that we haven't the authority to order Turkey to pay any type of reparation......

If you want my very quiet opinion on this (stop throwing bricks!), were the US Congress to pass this resolution, it would have a much bigger affect on the whole Middle East in the long-term than did the USA invasion of Iraq. That is just how big this whole thing is. I can well understand Bush and his pleas to Congress not to pass the resolution; I have zero sympathy for the Turks on this matter, but I can well see the point of view of those like Bush on this matter too. This is extremely big hot potatos, with many hidden side-effects just waiting to slowly explode.

 

[Darth Rotor]

If you want my very quiet opinion on this (stop throwing bricks!), were the US Congress to pass this resolution, it would have a much bigger affect on the whole Middle East in the long-term than did the USA invasion of Iraq. That is just how big this whole thing is. I can well understand Bush and his pleas to Congress not to pass the resolution; I have zero sympathy for the Turks on this matter, but I can well see the point of view of those like Bush on this matter too. This is extremely big hot potatos, with many hidden side-effects just waiting to slowly explode.

There is no reason to stick our fingers in the eyes of the Turks.

(Full disclosure: I worked for a Turk for three years in a NATO job.)

Turkey as a mostly secular Islamic nation, and ally, is uniquely positioned to be an asset to regional security, and American interests in the Levant, as well as in the Trans Caucasus.

Turkey alienated from the US is strategically dangerous, at least at the regional level.

Turkey at odds with Europe is one thing, but if you add the Islamic party (note I did not say Islamist) gaining more leverage due to foreign nations being sold as poor allies, there is ample risk of Turkey turning Islamist.

That takes us back to 1699, roughly, if an Islamist Turkey can build a regional coalition of Islamist states that include Iraq, Iran, and Turkey.

Jacking the Turks around over special victim status is poor policy.

DR

 

[Starthinker]

I am just curious if any of you are Armenian? I'm not, but married into an Armenian family about 20 years ago and can tell you it's just another step in getting Turkey to even acknowledge that this even happened. In private, many Turkish officials will admit this happened but in public you can get yourself killed for even bringing the subject up. It's just a matter of being stubborn. Virtually all the Armenians I know have said that if Turkey, actually, just the current Turkish government, just admits it happened then peace would fall on these two countries.

As one of the articles I read stated, and I'm paraphrasing, it's not about condemming the Turkish people or it's current government, it's about condeming an act that happened in another time, by another group of people, so that the world can move on.

For the record, no Armenians I've ever talked to ever considered compensation or legal actions, for them it's just a matter of not being able to let go until it's officially recognized.

 

[Kerberos]

At the risk of being flamed by others:

the USA has an interesting legal enviroment. Were the Congress to pass a resolution describing the 1915 Turkish genocide of the Armenians as a genocide, it could very easily encourage further steps of litigation driven by Armenian descendents (living in the USA) of those driven out of Turkey in 1915, with the aim of gaining punitive and other compensation for lost land and for the acts of gross violence. Since there are a great many official Turkish govt assets floating through the USA banking system, such moves would not be without potential effects.

I have difficulty beleiving that the US courts would be that politically insensitive. If the target was Iran then perhaps, but otherwise I doubt it. I could be wrong, but I don't think that any such case has ever been succesfully pursued against a US ally.

 

[Gurdur]

I am just curious if any of you are Armenian?

I'm not Armenian in the slightest, but I have had a lot to do with Armenian communities in Australia in the past, and I used to be able to speak and read a tiny bit of Armenian. I can still transliterate the script. Dunno if that answers your question.

 

[Spindrift]

At the risk of being flamed by others:

the USA has an interesting legal enviroment. Were the Congress to pass a resolution describing the 1915 Turkish genocide of the Armenians as a genocide, it could very easily encourage further steps of litigation driven by Armenian descendents (living in the USA) of those driven out of Turkey in 1915, with the aim of gaining punitive and other compensation for lost land and for the acts of gross violence. Since there are a great many official Turkish govt assets floating through the USA banking system, such moves would not be without potential effects.

There is also the big potential effect on USA financial, trade and military support of Turkey, also quite possibly affected.

BTW, Turkey literally spends millions in diplomatic efforts to head off just such resolutions; at this time Turkey is in a long diplomatic row with France, owing to the resolution passed through the French parliament, and it affects where Turkey buys its weapons from.

Could there be any reparations? The genocide was committed by the Ottoman Empire an entirely different entity than the Republic of Turkey.

I'm not up on international law and the responsibilities of successor states for the transgressions of their predecessors.

Could you sue Turkey for what the Ottoman Empire did?

 

[Gurdur]

I have difficulty beleiving that the US courts would be that politically insensitive. ......

*shrug*
Very little that could ever possibly happen in the USA would surprise me personally. Viewpoints like tastes differ.

 

[Gurdur]

Could there be any reparations? The genocide was committed by the Ottoman Empire an entirely different entity than the Republic of Turkey.

The Bundesrepublik of Deutschland is a completely different entity to the Nazi regime of Germany 1933-1945. Nevertheless, the Bundesrepublik paid millions upon millions in compensation in various ways to Israel and to individual Jews over the last six decades.

Could you sue Turkey for what the Ottoman Empire did?

Can't see why not. After all, they're hanging on to a fair few assets seized from Armenians back in 1915 etc.

 

[Spindrift]

The Bundesrepublik of Deutschland is a completely different entity to the Nazi regime of Germany 1933-1945. Nevertheless, the Bundesrepublik paid millions upon millions in compensation in various ways to Israel and to individual Jews over the last six decades.

Wasn't that a condition of restoration of their own government? I'll have to look that up.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany


Plus I don't think East Germany ever paid anything to Israel or anyone else.

 

[Gurdur]

Wasn't that a condition of restoration of their own government? I'll have to look that up.

It does not change my point in the slightest, does it? And fully answers your question. Despite the current govt/state of Germany being a completely different entity from the Nazi regime, they still pay compensation for Nazi acts. That answers your question fully.

Plus I don't think East Germany ever paid anything to Israel or anyone else.

Eh, wrong, in principle.
There is a very old German joke on this:
the leader of West Germany and the leader of East Germany get together for talks on reconciliation etc.
The West German leader complains to the East German one,
"But we paid millions to Israel and you didn't!"
The East German leader replies,
"But we have been paying off the Russians all this time and you haven't!"

 

[Starthinker]

I'm not Armenian in the slightest, but I have had a lot to do with Armenian communities in Australia in the past, and I used to be able to speak and read a tiny bit of Armenian. I can still transliterate the script. Dunno if that answers your question.

I only asked because I truly wonder if my experience with Armenians and the stuff I'm told by Armenians are typical. I'm not going to debate what congress is doing, it's a very tricky political position, I just wonder if anyone here was actually Armenian and would like to chime in.

Darth Rotor, you mentioned working with a Turk, is what I'm told about Turkish officials true? I've talked with Armenians from Yerevan who still have contacts in Turkey, which is where I've heard this.

In any case, my children will ask questions about this and I like to be just as informed about this as when they ask me about ghosts and bigfoots and Silvia whats-her-name. We moved out of lower Michigan, so they get as much exposure as I did the first 10 or so years when I married into the family. I haven't run across any Armenian farmers out here in Iowa.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It does not change my point in the slightest, does it? And fully answers your question. Despite the current govt/state of Germany being a completely different entity from the Nazi regime, they still pay compensation for Nazi acts. That answers your question fully.

Eh, wrong, in principle.
There is a very old German joke on this:
the leader of West Germany and the leader of East Germany get together for talks on reconciliation etc.
The West German leader complains to the East German one,
"But we paid millions to Israel and you didn't!"
The East German leader replies,
"But we have been paying off the Russians all this time and you haven't!"

That's a beauty.

First time I heard that was from a German, late 1990's. He was still bitter that Bonn, his home town, was being replaced by Berlin as the capital of the reunited Germany.

DR

 

[Gurdur]

That's a beauty.

First time I heard that was from a German, late 1990's. He was still bitter that Bonn, his home town, was being replaced by Berlin as the capital of the reunited Germany.

DR

Some Bonn people are wankers. Berlin deserves it all, all the hassle, traffic jams etc. Let Berlin suffer as far as I am concerned. Let all the govt * be shoved into Berlin, and long may it be graffitied over**.

* It still isn't; it's still something like a 30/70 % split between Bonn and Berlin.

** Graffiti is of course a strong Berlin tradition.

 

[Garrette]

If you want my very quiet opinion on this

I am skeptical of your ability to have a quiet opinion...

were the US Congress to pass this resolution, it would have a much bigger affect on the whole Middle East in the long-term than did the USA invasion of Iraq. That is just how big this whole thing is.

I don't know how big it is or might get, but I agree with the sentiment that it is far bigger than a simple piece of paper getting enough votes.

Jacking the Turks around over special victim status is poor policy.

Absolutely. If Bush has any political capital left, I sincerely hope he spends it in quashing this.

I am just curious if any of you are Armenian?

I am not. Nor do I know any. I have briefly met a few Turkish soldiers, but that is the entirety of my affiliation with either side.

and can tell you it's just another step in getting Turkey to even acknowledge that this even happened.

As can be seen from the reaction already, it is not having this effect in the slightest. If that is truly the goal, then there are other tacks to take.

It's just a matter of being stubborn.

How often does shouting "You're wrong! I'm right!" make a stubborn person stop being stubborn?

Virtually all the Armenians I know have said that if Turkey, actually, just the current Turkish government, just admits it happened then peace would fall on these two countries.

How does this resolution work toward getting the Turkish government to admit it?

As one of the articles I read stated, and I'm paraphrasing, it's not about condemming the Turkish people or it's current government, it's about condeming an act that happened in another time, by another group of people,

And the condemnation isn't real if the US government doesn't join in?

so that the world can move on.

I submit that the world has moved on. At risk of sounding cruel and uncaring, it is apparently the Armenians who have not.

 

[quixotecoyote]

I have a simple plan.

a. The USA should stop doing evil condemnable acts.

while simultaneously

b. Recognize and condemn the evil acts of others.

Then I will be happier.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

It does not change my point in the slightest, does it?

It refutes it.

There is a difference between Germany choosing to pay reparations in exchange for the restoration of its government and (I suspect) out of an acceptance of guilt and the German government being legally obliged to pay such reparations.

 

[Starthinker]

As can be seen from the reaction already, it is not having this effect in the slightest. If that is truly the goal, then there are other tacks to take.

I agree that there are other tacks to take.

How often does shouting "You're wrong! I'm right!" make a stubborn person stop being stubborn?

I don't know, you tell me.

How does this resolution work toward getting the Turkish government to admit it?

Just another country to put pressure on. That's all.

And the condemnation isn't real if the US government doesn't join in?

No, just makes it official.

I submit that the world has moved on. At risk of sounding cruel and uncaring, it is apparently the Armenians who have not.

And, the Turkish government. Admitting the genocide would be the first step in the Turkish government moving on. Maybe you should tell all the peoples of the world that have been wronged that it's time to move on. Many wars and conflicts would end.