Bush to lead disaster inquiry

[delphi_ote]

Everyone in N.O. spent the day after the hurricane breathing a collective sigh of relief.

Gotta disagree with you there, Jocko. I hadn't (though for all intents and purposes I am a nobody.) I was glad the storm had turned and weakend a bit, but I was still holding my breath waiting to see the result. Damage to a whole city isn't the type of news that comes in overnight (no matter how much pundits try to rush such things by just making crap up.)

We should all still be holding our breath. The situation isn't over by a long shot. There are still millions displaced, possibly thousands dead, possible economic consequences for the country, an entire city to be rebuilt... and the city is still flooded. This is a long sad nightmare we're not going to wake up from anytime soon.

 

[Mark]

Mark/Jocko,

When was this fundraiser? I'm having trouble finding references online.

I live an hour from San Diego and it was in all the papers here. (It made the national press, too, but Jocko didn't see it, therefore it doesn't exist) he was staying at the very ritzy Hotel del Coronado. To be fair, the jackass did cut his trip short by a whole hour.

In the face of this tragedy, rather than call off your vacation days ago and head back home to coordinate the relief, but even more importantly, to show the American people that you care and are in charge, you did not fly east to Washington. You flew west to Arizona and to California. While New Orleans and the south was in the process of being destroyed yesterday, you flew west and devoted the day to Medicare. While the death toll for the hurricane increases by the hour, and even FOX News has just now cut away from your live WWII speech in order to return their coverage to New Orleans, you continue to babble on about WWII and Iraq.

Mr. President, you should consider yourself lucky. By ignoring this hurricane and remaining on vacation all weekend, and by continuing to ignore this hurricane and travel out west doing stump speeches instead of focusing on the growing tragedy, you handed the Democrats in Congress a golden opportunity to paint you as out of touch, uncaring, and embattled. The Democrats chose to ignore this opportunity and have remained silent about your complacency in the face of disaster. That is unfortunately what Democrats do; they miss opportunities and sit back quietly while Republicans stumble over themselves with their incompetence.
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/08/mr-president-come-home.html

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/kgtv/20050830/lo_kgtv/2907519

Jocko, I see you are back to lying about me.

 

[Mark]

No, I said the levees hadn't BROKEN yet. The storm had passed.

As to what I'm basing my argument on, it's simple. Mark said Bush spent the day after the hurricane strike at a GOP fundraiser/plotting the downfall of humanity/eating babies/whatever.

/B]

You are an idiot.

 

[Jocko]

Gotta disagree with you there, Jocko. I hadn't (though for all intents and purposes I am a nobody.) I was glad the storm had turned and weakend a bit, but I was still holding my breath waiting to see the result. Damage to a whole city isn't the type of news that comes in overnight (no matter how much pundits try to rush such things by just making crap up.)

There were two disasters: one, the hurricane strike itself. As you said, it cut east and dropped to a cat 3 at the last minute and actual hurricane damage to N.O. was a fraction of what was expected. That's the "whew" I was talking about.

The second disaster, which happened the following day, was the levee failures. That's what caused the lions share off the damage and resulted in the horrific conditions down there. There's a big difference between 1 foot of water from a hurricane and 12 feet of water from a burst levee.

My point is, there was a brief period of relief between these two events, and this is the period Mark is speaking to.

We should all still be holding our breath. The situation isn't over by a long shot. There are still millions displaced, possibly thousands dead, possible economic consequences for the country, an entire city to be rebuilt... and the city is still flooded. This is a long sad nightmare we're not going to wake up from anytime soon.

No argument here. It's a titanic catastrophe that will impact every American and be felt across the world. I just wish we could hold our breath on the hysterical knee-jerk criticism as well, or at least spread it a little more evenly rather than using the disaster as a podium to preach from.

 

[Jocko]

You are an idiot.

Maybe, but at least I know that Tuesday falls between Monday and Wednesday. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that fact in your rush to smear blood on Bush's hands.

Think about it for a second, you'll figure it out.

 

[Jocko]

I live an hour from San Diego and it was in all the papers here. (It made the national press, too, but Jocko didn't see it, therefore it doesn't exist) he was staying at the very ritzy Hotel del Coronado. To be fair, the jackass did cut his trip short by a whole hour.

In the face of this tragedy, rather than call off your vacation days ago and head back home to coordinate the relief, but even more importantly, to show the American people that you care and are in charge, you did not fly east to Washington. You flew west to Arizona and to California. While New Orleans and the south was in the process of being destroyed yesterday, you flew west and devoted the day to Medicare. While the death toll for the hurricane increases by the hour, and even FOX News has just now cut away from your live WWII speech in order to return their coverage to New Orleans, you continue to babble on about WWII and Iraq.

Mr. President, you should consider yourself lucky. By ignoring this hurricane and remaining on vacation all weekend, and by continuing to ignore this hurricane and travel out west doing stump speeches instead of focusing on the growing tragedy, you handed the Democrats in Congress a golden opportunity to paint you as out of touch, uncaring, and embattled. The Democrats chose to ignore this opportunity and have remained silent about your complacency in the face of disaster. That is unfortunately what Democrats do; they miss opportunities and sit back quietly while Republicans stumble over themselves with their incompetence.
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/08/mr-president-come-home.html

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/kgtv/20050830/lo_kgtv/2907519

Jocko, I see you are back to lying about me.

Mark, apart from your continuing to cite blogs as evidence, I'd like to point out one little thing about your Yahoo story.

It doesn't mention Katrina at all.

This is because the story was published during the period between the storm and the levee failures.

Which is the period you believe Bush should have been mobilizing against a crisis that had not yet occurred.

 

[KelvinG]

Mark, your venemous hate for Bush is rivaled only by Jocko's unconditional love for the man.

I think both opinions cancel each other out. Y'know, just like in figure skating where the lowest and highest scores get thrown out in order to ensure impartial judging.

 

[Random]

"Hey, Mr. Mayor, we have 350 buses capable of evacuating most of the poor and housebound in plenty of time! Right now they're sitting idle below sea level. What should we do?"

I was under the impression that those busses were not owned by the local government, but were instead private property because of a privatization scheme. In any case, there would still be the questions of where they would go, and who would drive them.

 

[Mark]

Maybe, but at least I know that Tuesday falls between Monday and Wednesday. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that fact in your rush to smear blood on Bush's hands.

Think about it for a second, you'll figure it out.

Feathers down now? Good.

What you are missing is that a leader---a real leader, not a poser---would have anticipated some of this (not all, maybe) and have got some of the relief into the pipeline immediately.

Instead, we got a President who found his personal schedule far more important than being proactive and helping thousands and thousands of people. And, yes, I do find that very, very objectionable indeed. So would you if it were a Democrat in office, I'll bet.

Keep in mind that the Army Corps of Engineers had been predicting this exact disaster for decades. The National Geographic predicted it as well. As soon as Bush heard there was a Category 5 hurricane on its way, he should have jumped into action; instead, he did nothing. As I said, even I knew this might happen! (But then, I read the papers and Bush clearly does not.)

Everyone (except Bush) knew the levees were likely to break.

 

[Jocko]

Mark, your venemous hate for Bush is rivaled only by Jocko's unconditional love for the man.

I think both opinions cancel each other out. Y'know, just like in figure skating where the lowest and highest scores get thrown out in order to ensure impartial judging.

My issue with Mark is not his politics, but his tactics. I have soundly rebuked the idea that the fundraiser amounted to a callous dismissal of a flooded New Orleans, and Mark himself provide the Yahoo story that confirms it.

If simple logic amounts to "unconditional love" to you, then you could probably be happily married to a calculator.

 

[Darat]

Mark & Jocko please remember your Membership Agreement; you have both breached it in this thread. Address the issues relevant for this section.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Jocko]

Feathers down now? Good.

What you are missing is that a leader---a real leader, not a poser---would have anticipated some of this (not all, maybe) and have got some of the relief into the pipeline immediately.

Instead, we got a President who found his personal schedule far more important than being proactive and helping thousands and thousands of people. And, yes, I do find that very, very objectionable indeed. So would you if it were a Democrat in office, I'll bet.

Keep in mind that the Army Corps of Engineers had been predicting this exact disaster for decades. The National Geographic predicted it as well. As soon as Bush heard there was a Category 5 hurricane on its way, he should have jumped into action; instead, he did nothing. As I said, even I knew this might happen! (But then, I read the papers and Bush clearly does not.)

Everyone (except Bush) knew the levees were likely to break.

Boy, shifting the goalposts from "he knew and ignored" to "he should have known." You are bona fide rabid, you know that?

If I kept this up with you for a few hours, I would be able to get you to demand that Bush should have donned the cape and taken the heat vision route.

As it is, I'll let you simply stew in your own irrational hatred for the amusement of all. See ya, buddy.

 

[KelvinG]

My issue with Mark is not his politics, but his tactics. I have soundly rebuked the idea that the fundraiser amounted to a callous dismissal of a flooded New Orleans, and Mark himself provide the Yahoo story that confirms it.

If simple logic amounts to "unconditional love" to you, then you could probably be happily married to a calculator.

Do you have any photos of this calculator?

 

[Jocko]

Mark & Jocko please remember your Membership Agreement; you have both breached it in this thread. Address the issues relevant for this section.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

Done and done. Apologies.

 

[Blue Mountain]

You are an idiot.

Is an ad hominum attack proper decorum here? If so, I've got a pretty good aresenal ready to go.

 

[Mark]

Boy, shifting the goalposts from "he knew and ignored" to "he should have known." You are bona fide rabid, you know that?

If I kept this up with you for a few hours, I would be able to get you to demand that Bush should have donned the cape and taken the heat vision route.

As it is, I'll let you simply stew in your own irrational hatred for the amusement of all. See ya, buddy.

Ah yes, the last line of defence for the Bush apologist...simply accuse the speaker of " irrational hatred."

Jocko, Bush dropped the ball on this one and everyone knows it. Even you, I'll bet.

Darat, correction accepted. I'll watch my temper. But please notice I did not make a counter comment to Jocko about about his irrational sycophancy.

 

[Mark]

Is an ad hominum attack proper decorum here? If so, I've got a pretty good aresenal ready to go.

No, it is not, and I accept Darat's rebuke.

 

[corplinx]

Why should Barbour and Nagin get the bulk of the blame? Look, the whole point of putting FEMA into the Department of Homeland Security was that there would be a single organization that could respond when really bad stuff happened. Something really bad happened, and FEMA and the DHS screwed up royally. Did the governor and mayor make mistakes? Yes. But you can’t get around the fact that FEMA and DHS didn’t do their jobs.

Barbour is the governer of Mississippi.

Hurricane Kat at Cat1 hits Florida, casualties reported
Hurricane Kat gathers strength over the Gulf reaching Cat4
Bush declares disaster areas preemptively in anticipation.
Two days before Landfall, Federal FEMA starts to stage supplies/personnel.
One day before Landfall, New Orleans Mayor (at the request of Bush) orders an evacuation. Sorta, unless you want to ride it out in the dome or at the convention center.

Lousiana has its own homeland security/fema director as well as its own National Guard units. These are controlled by the governer.

Hurricane makes landfall. Superdome damaged.
One day post-hurricane, town floods.

Two days after landfall, federal fema (who usually plays a a support role while locals "drive") in an unprecedented act has to take over a large metropolitan area.

Not only has Fema done its job, its gone beyond the call of duty. FEMA doesn't drive. FEMA is the co-pilot for large metro areas.

People point to the convention center mistake as evidence of incompetence. Whatever, it might be. However, that doesn't excuse systematic incompetence that hindered evacuation, hindered damage assessments, hindered problem assessments, blocked the flow of timely information upstream. The proper role for FEMA in New Orleans should have been assisting the locals. FEMA was caught off guard by the Mayor basically throwing up his hands. Should FEMA have takeover plans for large US cities in case of total meltdown of local fire/PD/mayor and in case of absentee state leadership?

 

[Psi Baba]

The levees didn't BREAK until a day after the storm had passed. How's that for an "excuse"? You know, that the bulk of the actual disaster hadn't happened yet?

According to CNN.com's timeline of the hurricane:

August 29
• 4 a.m.: Hurricane Katrina is downgraded to a strong Category 4 storm.

• 7 a.m.: Katrina makes landfall on the Louisiana coast between Grand Isle and the mouth of the Mississippi River.

• 11a.m. Katrina makes another landfall near the Louisiana-Mississippi state line with 125 mph winds. The storm's daylong rampage claims lives and ravages property in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, where coastal areas remained under several feet of water.

• Two major flood-control levees are breached, and the National Weather Service reports "total structural failure" in parts of New Orleans. A section of the roof of the Louisiana Superdome, where 10,000 people are taking refuge, opens. Many are feared dead in flooded neighborhoods still under as much as 20 feet of water.

In a different article:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.levees/index.html

The National Weather Service reported a breach along the Industrial Canal levee at Tennessee Street, in southeast New Orleans, on Monday. Local reports later said the levee was overtopped, not breached, but the Corps of Engineers reported it Tuesday afternoon as having been breached.

This article in the Star Tribune, timestamped August 29, 10:33 pm, refers to levees being breached.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5585674.html

Two of the three breaches occurred the same day the hurricane made landfall, not "a day after the storm had passed."

 

[Mark]

Barbour is the governer of Mississippi.

Hurricane Kat at Cat1 hits Florida, casualties reported
Hurricane Kat gathers strength over the Gulf reaching Cat4
Bush declares disaster areas preemptively in anticipation.
Two days before Landfall, Federal FEMA starts to stage supplies/personnel.
One day before Landfall, New Orleans Mayor (at the request of Bush) orders an evacuation. Sorta, unless you want to ride it out in the dome or at the convention center.

Lousiana has its own homeland security/fema director as well as its own National Guard units. These are controlled by the governer.

Hurricane makes landfall. Superdome damaged.
One day post-hurricane, town floods.

Two days after landfall, federal fema (who usually plays a a support role while locals "drive") in an unprecedented act has to take over a large metropolitan area.

Not only has Fema done its job, its gone beyond the call of duty. FEMA doesn't drive. FEMA is the co-pilot for large metro areas.

People point to the convention center mistake as evidence of incompetence. Whatever, it might be. However, that doesn't excuse systematic incompetence that hindered evacuation, hindered damage assessments, hindered problem assessments, blocked the flow of timely information upstream. The proper role for FEMA in New Orleans should have been assisting the locals. FEMA was caught off guard by the Mayor basically throwing up his hands. Should FEMA have takeover plans for large US cities in case of total meltdown of local fire/PD/mayor and in case of absentee state leadership?

I ask this in all politeness...but what held up the relief efforts for so many days? If a hurricane of this size were heading toward Kennebunkport, do you honestly think it would have taken so long to mobilize help? (And, no, I don't think it had anything to with race at all.)

Also, I think Bush's initial refusal of international aid was moronic.