Bush backs Sharon Peace Proposal

[zenith-nadir]

Dont lose Heart ZN, your brilliant and incisive reposting of spam news articles and cutting and pasting other people's opinions is bound to win us over eventually...
I have to go out now...as long as that bastard Arafat doesn't make it rain.

The Fool accusing me of "incisive reposting of spam news articles and cutting and pasting other people's opinions"....

 

[zenith-nadir]

Here Demon maybe these happy peace photos will ease the mean old joooooze "mortal blow"....

 

[a_unique_person]

The Palestinians who participate in the Geneva Initiative have realized very well that Israel won't survive with an arabic majority so since they really want a solution they withdrew the right of return from the negotiations.

Actually, when you read the Geneva "agreements" carefully, you'll find out they did nothing of the sort. The so-called refugees ("victims of Arab detention" is a more appropriate term) retain the right to choose israel as one of the places they will "return" to.

You have to understand that if you are interested in those people.

He isn't. He is only interested in the bit about them which can be blamed on the jews. AUP never showed the least interest in, say, the billions Arafat stole from his people, or in the fact that 16% of Palestinians casualties in the so-called "intifada" (terror war of annihilation is a better term) were killed by fellow Palestinians.

I don't know how many times I can say it, but I will say it again. Arafat is not the man to lead the Palestinians, no matter how much he seems to think he is. His administration of Palestine after Oslo was part of the reason Oslo failed. He has used illegal means to shore up his power in Palestine. If he was gone, the peace process would probably go better. However, this does not mean that it is all his fault. So stop telling lies about me.

 

[a_unique_person]

So, what are you saying here that Sharon and Bush are not trying to find a viable solution but they are punishing the Palestinians for tolerating Arafat?
You know z-n or maybe you don't know it. Arafat is our man. If he was dangerous we would have killed me long ago but he is not dangerous, he is convenient. No he is not convenient he is the best supporter of Sharon's policy. That's why Ariel turns him the favor and everytime his authority is questioned by the Palestinians he sents the army to his head quarters and he re-baptizes him as hero...

Thanks for that Cleo. I have often wondered the same thing myself. I read a report, (In a mainstream paper), that Israel does protect Arafat. For example, when his compound was under attack, there was a move by Palestinians to kick him out. Just when it appeared this would happen, the IDF stopped their attack. Arafat lived another day. He is a useful tool for them. The blood of Israelis may be on his hands, but also on Sharon's.

Arafat is old, he will be off the market after some years and tell me what Sharon and Bush who care that much of the weak leadership of the Palestinians have done for his succession? I will tell you what they have done. The have created a strong Hamas to inherit the Palestinian authority and this strong Hamas doesn't negotiate anything you know. So now what? What Sharon succeeds with annexing some settlements? He gives Palestinians more real reasons to refuse to negotiate. Even if those settlements will be annexed, they will never be safe. People in these settlements will leave in fear like caged animals. Did we created a state to live as caged animals?

As an Israeli I profited a lot from Arafat's destructive policy and I profited in the field of diplomacy. The Israeli PMs you listed must think alike because none tried to eliminate him. Thanks to Arafat we expanded the settlements, thanks to Arafat the international community tolerates us to violate the international law en masse, thanks to Arafat we have nuclear weapons. Thanks to Arafat Ariel Sharon was elected. He must erect a statue of Arafat on his private island in Greece and worship him night and day.

Now your turn. How your life in your american city will change if Israel withdraws completely from the O.T.?

Too bad you aren't a Real Jew (TM), Cleopatra. The list of such Jews grows longer every day, but don't worry. There are enough left who are.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by Demon

From Reuters UK today:
'...Palestinians said bluntly Bush had killed negotiations. Israeli officials say the Palestinians thwarted talks by failing to stop militants carrying out suicide attacks on Israelis.

Informed of Palestinians' reaction, Sharon was quoted by two well-informed Israeli columnists covering his White House visit as saying: "They have a better understanding of the significance of (Bush's) letter than most Israelis. I said that we were going to deal them a lethal blow, and they were dealt a lethal blow."'

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticl...nt§ion=news

Exactly, demon. Thank you for providing the excellent quote above and below. Sharon knows that the intent is to destroy the Palestinians but he can manipulate Bush's support with a few key words (like "peace" and "terrorism").

'A MORTAL BLOW'

"My plan is tough on the Palestinians. A mortal blow. In a unilateral process there is no Palestinian state. This situation could go on for many years," Sharon said before he saw Bush.'

Again, this says it all. For the first time ever, our government is supporting a unilateral process designed to destroy any hope of a Palestinian state--something that has been an accepted part of every agreement previously, even the so called "Road map".

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticl...nt§ion=news

 

[ceptimus]

Some UN resolutions 1955-1992:

* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
*Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious
obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member
states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the
council's order not to deport Palestinians".
* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide
by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its
claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported
Palestinian mayors".
* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's
nuclear facility".
* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan
Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
allow food supplies to be brought in".
* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia
in attack on PLO headquarters.
* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students
at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices
denying the human rights of Palestinians.
* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians
at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United
Nations.
* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of
Palestinians.
* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and
calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians

 

[demon]

Cleopatra:

As you would expect, I can`t let your posts go unchallenged.

"Frankly I believe that they do not know what they want, they are completely disoriented.

Several decades of brutal, racist, occupation of calculated destruction, Lebensraum, and massively disproportionate force is quite likely to result in a degree of "disorientation". I'm pretty sure plenty of the Jews of Auschwitz were understandably disorientated, but that disorientation was not their fault.

The Palestinians might be somewhat belwildered by Israelis persecuting them for decade after decade, but in terms of what-they want, well an end to occupation and national self-determination are the common goals/demands.

"A good move it would be for Israel to show them what to ask for but Israel gave the authority to Hamas as present instead."

Yeah yeah, the racist occupiers know what`s best for the oppressed natives. I've heard that one before. I think you'd dislike Palestinians showing Israel what to ask for, but you don't mind having it the other way round. Well, to be blunt we have a word for that: hypocracy. Orwell dubbed it "doublespeak".

"Arafat is old, he will be off the market after some years and tell me what Sharon and Bush who care that much of the weak leadership of the Palestinians have done for his succession? I will tell you what they have done. The have created a strong Hamas to inherit the Palestinian authority and this strong Hamas doesn't negotiate anything you know."

The Palestinians have been willing to negotiate for a very long time, but as we all know, it is Israel and America who have traditionally and purposely pursued "rejectionist" policies.

"So now what? What Sharon succeeds with annexing some settlements? He gives Palestinians more real reasons to refuse to negotiate. Even if those settlements will be annexed, they will never be safe. People in these settlements will leave in fear like caged animals. Did we created a state to live as caged animals?"

Who is this "we"? Anyway, the Palestinians live worse than caged animals... they are treated as target practice. These "settlers" are ethnic cleansers - and plenty are quite happy to tell you so to your face (see Amos Oz's sets of settler interviews). It's pretty much given if you invade a country and try to colonise, the locals will be upset and resist.

"As an Israeli I profited a lot from Arafat's destructive policy and I profited in the field of diplomacy. The Israeli PMs you listed must think alike because none tried to eliminate him. Thanks to Arafat we expanded the settlements, thanks to Arafat the international community tolerates us to violate the international law en masse, thanks to Arafat we have nuclear weapons. Thanks to Arafat Ariel Sharon was elected."

Ah, at last some perception! If you take the trouble to examine internal Israeli strategic planning, rarely is security mentioned. What Arafat or other Palestinians do, however well-spread on the media, is comparative small-fry in terms of state-planning. Anti-PLO propaganda/hatred rousing only works if there is a PLO in existence and one that can have an occasional front-page impact. You cannot scare the children with a dead bogeyman. The inherent and unchangeable evil of Arafat and the PLO is the tool used to ever expand Israel, and for her to keep key strategic locations, access to Palestinian water being a prime example.

"He must erect a statue of Arafat on his private island in Greece and worship him night and day."

If I remember correctly, Sharon is on-record stating he feels jealous of how the Arabs interact with each other with so much dignity and humanity: watching some Palestinians sharing their lunches communally on a lawn in a very gentle way made him feel disappointed and bitter, because he knew he lived a life where such relaxed, humane, social interaction - with anyone let alone strangers - was forever out of his reach.

"Thanks to Arafat we expanded the settlements"

It takes a quite peculiar logic-gate to arrive at the conclusion the victim is to blame for the occupier's crimes.

"Thanks to Arafat the international community tolerates us to violate the international law en masse, thanks to Arafat we have nuclear weapons. Thanks to Arafat Ariel Sharon was elected."

I know you oppose talk of a Jewish Conspiracy but there comes a time when you have to take responsibility for your own electorate. The international community tolerates Israel's violation of the law en masse because America rabidly backs Israel up, everywhere and at every occasion bar none. Israeli Jews built nuclear weapons, getting much of the tech from the French. Or is Vannunu Palestinian? Israeli Jews: right-wingers, reactionaries, and morons alike, they voted in Sharon.

You argument has about as much credibility as a man who says the Jews brought the Holocaust onto themselves. No. The crimes of those who wield massive and disproportionate state violence and terror resides exclusively with those who hold that absolute power.

It is an irony that though bullies love to use and abuse their power, they rarely wish to look deeply into a mirror. A bully prefers to quickly and glibly rationalise away their acts and responsibility, blaming the victim rather accepting responsiblity.

You might want to have had a "beautifull Israel" created in "your name", but the truth is your leaders have founded a cancer of a state, one created on bloodshed, and terror, and theft, and mass murder, and destruction, and racisim, and hatred and bitterness; and a unique, hysterical, smug, self-satisfied, gloating, denial of it all.

 

[Clancie]

Ceptimus,

Did you ever read any of the UN resolutions that you're excerpting above (for example, the parts that guarantee a Palestinian homeland)?

Or did you just copy those little excerpts from the site below (where your list appears, verbatim--as at a few other pro-Israel sites):

"Scoop" site on UN resolutions

****

If you're interested in the history of the US vetoing the UN resolutions critical of Israel, here's a link:

US Vetoes of UN Resolutions on Israel

 

[zenith-nadir]

Hey ceptimus, since you are such a scholar of UN Resolutions, find me the UN resolution condeming suicide bombing by Hamas, Al Aksa or Islamic Jihad...I give you 1 week...if you can find a UN Resolution which condemns suicide bombing by Hamas, Al Aksa or Islamic Jihad I will leave JREF forever.

In fact I open the opportunity to a_u_p, Demon and the Fool to banish me forever, just find one single UN Resolution condeming suicide bombing by Hamas, Al Aksa and Islamic Jihad.

 

[The Fool]

Hey ceptimus, since you are such a scholar of UN Resolutions, find me the UN resolution condeming suicide bombing by Hamas, Al Aksa or Islamic Jihad...I give you 1 week...if you can find a UN Resolution which condemns suicide bombing by Hamas, Al Aksa or Islamic Jihad I will leave JREF forever.

In fact I open the opportunity to a_u_p, Demon and the Fool to banish me forever, just find one single UN Resolution condeming suicide bombing by Hamas, Al Aksa and Islamic Jihad.

you truly are a complete Idiot ZN....do you know who UN resolutions are directed at? Any Idea at all? Do you know why there are no Un resolutions condemning the KKK? or the Democratic party or the catholic church or the boy scouts of america...... I'll give you a hint...UN resolutions are directed at things beginning with G..... What is the point of attempting to discuss these matters with people who fail to understand the basics.

 

[Virgil]

OK, instead of mud slinging why don't we devise a true peace plan for the isreal and the palestineians. lets brain storm lets hear some constructive (please) ideals on how to solve this problem.




Virgil

 

[zenith-nadir]

you truly are a complete Idiot ZN....do you know who UN resolutions are directed at? Any Idea at all? Do you know why there are no Un resolutions condemning the KKK? or the Democratic party or the catholic church or the boy scouts of america...... I'll give you a hint...UN resolutions are directed at things beginning with G..... What is the point of attempting to discuss these matters with people who fail to understand the basics.

Well when your done avoiding your chance to get rid of me forever I will remind you that Fateh is the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority. Fateh has carried out suicide bombings and it's military wing Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades has ALSO carried out suicide bombings.

 

[varwoche]

I agree completely. So the next tough question is how far back in history should one go?

For myself, the answer is the beginnings of the Zionist movement, about 1881.

Another tough question capable of cutting both ways. How much weight should be given to religious/cultural factors?

1881 works for me. Which means getting from here to here

Are these maps fair enough bookends, or is there a better online source you know of?

 

[a_unique_person]

Well when your done avoiding your chance to get rid of me forever I will remind you that Fateh is the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority. Fateh has carried out suicide bombings and it's military wing Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades has ALSO carried out suicide bombings.

The Ruling Party of what? There is no Palestinian State. They are under military occupation of Israel. Now that Sharon has a broken Dubya on the end of a string to give him what he wants, there never will be a Palestine, just some Bantustan ghettos.

If you want a glimpse into the mindset of Sharon, he really said that the West Bank will now be Israels "for all eternity". You are dealing with a fanatic here, ZN.

 

[demon]

Virgil:
"OK, instead of mud slinging why don't we devise a true peace plan for the isreal and the palestineians. lets brain storm lets hear some constructive (please) ideals on how to solve this problem."

For a start:
End the illegal and immoral military occupation.
Dismantle the illegal settlements.
Observe the borders, not those of Greater Israel.

The UN has passed scores and scores of resolutions Israel has ignored, or got their exceptional good friend America to veto. Masses and masses of them. Requesting observance of UN resolutions would be a good start, and something that can be reasonably "coherrently" demanded from the grass-roots.

The solutuon lies with the US if they had the will.

A few other suggestions:

1)A UN peacekeeping force enters to patrol the 1967 borders

2)Prisoners held without trial unconditionally released. Those convicted moved closer to their families in the occupied territories under Palestinian jurisdiction, with the right of appeal for those protesting innocence. Amnesty for those whose actions didn;t violate the Geneva convention.

3)Israel to immediately release Conscientious objectors it has jailed.

4)International task force to investigate war crimes on both sides, with a mandate to bring those responsible to justice.

 

[a_unique_person]

OK, instead of mud slinging why don't we devise a true peace plan for the isreal and the palestineians. lets brain storm lets hear some constructive (please) ideals on how to solve this problem.

Virgil

As with most conflicts, the will of the majority who just want the best for themselves and their children is overridden by the militant minority, who only have to commit a few acts of outrage to ensure that peaceful resolutions are difficult to achieve.

As I have said before, and been condemmed for saying so, the killings will be going on for many years to come.

The expert is the one who says it will cost the most and take the longest.

 

[zenith-nadir]

OK, instead of mud slinging why don't we devise a true peace plan for the isreal and the palestineians. lets brain storm lets hear some constructive (please) ideals on how to solve this problem.Virgil

If I had my way, remove Arafat and the Palestinian Authority, replace them with an international governing council that would set up palestinian elections, remove the terror groups and administer the West Bank and Gaza properly. Then the Israelis would be forced to pull the IDF out and let the palestinians have a homeland. But that will never work. Arafat has never allowed elections since 1969 nor will he stop the terror groups, and no palestinian will allow Arafat to be removed. A catch 22 that has plagued the Palestinians for two generations.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The UN has passed scores and scores of resolutions Israel has ignored, or got their exceptional good friend America to veto. Masses and masses of them. Requesting observance of UN resolutions would be a good start, and something that can be reasonably "coherrently" demanded from the grass-roots.

Ahhhhhh....the hypocrisy of Demon...


UNITED NATIONS General Assembly Resolution 181 - 29 November 1947

The Arab answer to UNITED NATIONS General Assembly Resolution 181? On May 15 1948, one day after the creation of the State of Israel, the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded the new Jewish state.

 

[demon]

AUP:
"The Ruling Party of what? There is no Palestinian State. They are under military occupation of Israel. Now that Sharon has a broken Dubya on the end of a string to give him what he wants, there never will be a Palestine, just some Bantustan ghettos.

If you want a glimpse into the mindset of Sharon, he really said that the West Bank will now be Israels "for all eternity". You are dealing with a fanatic here, ZN."

I`ve been of a view for a long time now that I think the window for a 2 state solution has opened and closed and you have Sharon and his settlement building policy (and Barak, the Israeli dove), to thank for that. A meaningful Palestinian state is probably impossible to achieve now...they set about destroying that possibility after the Oslo Accords with the subsequent huge expansion of settlements. If that doesn`t show the bad faith and ill intent of the Israelis then I don`t know what does.

 

[a_unique_person]

Ahhhhhh....the hypocrisy of Demon...


UNITED NATIONS General Assembly Resolution 181 - 29 November 1947

The Arab answer to UNITED NATIONS General Assembly Resolution 181? On May 15 1948, one day after the creation of the State of Israel, the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon invaded the new Jewish state.

The UN knew it had created a monster. Ben Gurion unilaterally declared the state, out of what, thin air? Oh, thats right, it was a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ the primitive people who lived there didn't deserve anyway. The Israelis drained those awful swamps, (they are called wetlands, these days), just like Saddam did to the Marsh Arabs in Iraq.

Modern Israel is an environmental disaster in the making. It cannot get enough water to satisfy the insane fantasy it has of creating California in the Middle East, it pollutes all it's water bodies.